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No, of course we didn't leave Canada to escape poverty or persecution. I was only saying that is one reason why some people do emigrate to another country.
But as for a "better life," that's very subjective. You're assuming that when I say people emigrate for a "better life," that Inecessarily mean more money and/or more material possessions. Some might define it that way; I certainly don't.
As I said, money was a minor deciding factor in our choice to move to the US. My former husband (who's Canadian) was bored in his position at work and I think frustrated by what he perceived as limited job options. For some reason, he wasn't interested in living in another province (which I had suggested), and I was tired of what were MY options of either dead-end jobs in the Hamilton area (where we lived) or enduring the long, daily commute into the GTA for better job prospects. We considered moving to the GTA, but the cost of housing even then (mid-90's) was prohibitive. Heck, even in an exurb like Burlington, housing was too expensive.
So my husband accepted the job opportunity in the US. It offered him unique work challenges, and we were able to buy a somewhat larger house than the very small one we'd owned in Hamilton. I was able to stay home for a few years with our young kids, which definitely would have been difficult to do in Ontario. During that time, I earned my Master's degree at a large state university that didn't cost much more than the same program would have at a comparable Ontario school. When I decided to return to work, there were more job opportunities in my field where we lived than there would have been in Ontario, and I had no problems landing a good job close by. After a few years at one job, I got a better one, also nearby. My commute? Never any longer than 15 minutes.
And I was able to escape 40+ years of northern winters when we moved south a few years ago. My former husband says he enjoys his job here (for a large French electronics firm) more than any other he's had. And yeah, he's happy with his salary, especially considering the COL here is lower in some respects. For my field of work, I think I'd make more money in Canada, depending on location and specific job. And that's just fine.
I make a decent income with great benefits, and the people here are among the warmest and most welcoming I've known. The climate's fabulous with plenty of sunshine, the region is beautiful, there's lots of outdoor activities year-round and enough culture to keep most people satisfied. What I like most is that people here are laid-back and know how to enjoy life. Even among other professionals I know and work with, I find they are far less status conscious and do not define themselves by their job titles or how big their house is, etc. That's what's important to me.
As much as I enjoy what I do for a living, I do NOT live to work and never have. I no longer want to live in a work-oriented, hyper-competitive culture like there is in some northern states and Southern Ontario. I don't really care about "stuff," and many Canadians have become as materialistic as many Americans are. Could I find that more laid-back lifestyle I value in another part of Canada? I'm sure I could, but then I'd be back to the winters. I absolutely loved living in Montreal as a teenager, but there were those winters.
So, yes, I have here what is a "better life" for me. Different strokes...
The only person I see making a fool of himself is you. First you say that anyone making less than $27,000 a year is living in poverty. Wow, really? That is personally offensive because I am a recent college graduate and make less than $27,000 a year.
Also, no one is talking about quality of life survey or happiness indexes. We are all talking about ECONOMICS! Income, money, finances! What is so hard to understand about that? That the US blows the Netherlands out of the water in economics is undeniable. You dont seem to understand the cost of living is much lower in the US, but there are also many more jobs and this thing called opportunity. It makes a HUGE difference!
That is rather contradictory, you admit to making less than $27k, what I call poverty, and then talk about there being 'many more jobs' and 'opportunity' in the US. Apparently, there aren't enough jobs and opportunity to earn more than $27k as an educated college graduate. There have been times when college graduates made much more than that. Graduates in the Netherlands also make much more than that. Or are you one of those college graduates driving the hotel shuttle to the airport like those I have met at several American hotels?
Concerning costs of living, I have lived in two US states and I live in the Netherlands now. The Netherlands is far cheaper than the interesting places in the US like NYC, San Fransisco or the Bay Area and more expensive than rural Texas or Alabama. Some things are generally cheaper in the US, other things are generally cheaper in the Netherlands. The answer to which country has lower costs of living is not as black and white as you think or as the completely false Numbeo statistics suggest.
Concerning costs of living, I have lived in two US states and I live in the Netherlands now. The Netherlands is far cheaper than the interesting places in the US like NYC, San Fransisco or the Bay Area and more expensive than rural Texas or Alabama. Some things are generally cheaper in the US, other things are generally cheaper in the Netherlands. The answer to which country has lower costs of living is not as black and white as you think or as the completely false Numbeo statistics suggest.
Quality of life is subjective. What you or I define as a good quality of life can differ and no one is wrong or right. One may like quiet, peaceful societies where everyone gets off at 5pm, roughly makes the same, and focuses on family and personal pursuits. Some like more volatile and busy places where people focus on careers (business or non-profit or the arts or whatever) as a means of self-expression or fulfillment. Some desire a life of leisure near beaches, mountains and nature in solitude. There is no one size fits all for a country or for segments within a country or for an individual.
But when it comes to income and cost of living, broadly speaking, the US tops Netherlands in this respect. Wiki has 3 different metrics to compare purchasing power (IMF, World Bank and CIA) that produce similar results List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The US average is around $53K in purchasing power compared to around $41-$43K for the Netherlands and $43K for Canada. On "average", Americans have more money in their pockets. They are the richest country in the world tilted more towards capitalism, I don't know why that is hard to accept? That being said, they have a smaller government sector that work for the people compared to the Netherlands and Canada. As I've said before, there are healthcare and education and other benefits that do eat away part of the difference so I don't think the full difference of $10K ($53K - $41-43K) is pocketed directly by all citizens. Maybe $5K is the net difference? They have more (maybe 10%?) but not dramatically more on average compared to other first world nations.
Last edited by johnathanc; 09-29-2014 at 07:22 AM..
A Canadian family lived down the street from me for years. The wife died earlier this year. I never got to know them because they pretty much kept to themselves.
Well if it's particular to a demographic, I'll describe mine: snowbirds.
Climate explains a lot of it but not all; factor in the general availability of amenities that go with a country of 350 million inhabitants and it's a tough contest for sure. Food, drink, activities abound and usually cheaper in the bargain due to competitive nature of business's all vying for a piece of that huge action.
The single over riding feature though has to be the bounty of like minded people who've arrived at a time in their lives when enjoyment of remaining time is priority one with no axes to grind. With a population of 350 mil, there's far more of those boomers to join ranks with in the sunny southern climes.
No, of course we didn't leave Canada to escape poverty or persecution. I was only saying that is one reason why some people do emigrate to another country.
But as for a "better life," that's very subjective. You're assuming that when I say people emigrate for a "better life," that Inecessarily mean more money and/or more material possessions. Some might define it that way; I certainly don't.
As I said, money was a minor deciding factor in our choice to move to the US. My former husband (who's Canadian) was bored in his position at work and I think frustrated by what he perceived as limited job options. For some reason, he wasn't interested in living in another province (which I had suggested), and I was tired of what were MY options of either dead-end jobs in the Hamilton area (where we lived) or enduring the long, daily commute into the GTA for better job prospects. We considered moving to the GTA, but the cost of housing even then (mid-90's) was prohibitive. Heck, even in an exurb like Burlington, housing was too expensive.
So my husband accepted the job opportunity in the US. It offered him unique work challenges, and we were able to buy a somewhat larger house than the very small one we'd owned in Hamilton. I was able to stay home for a few years with our young kids, which definitely would have been difficult to do in Ontario. During that time, I earned my Master's degree at a large state university that didn't cost much more than the same program would have at a comparable Ontario school. When I decided to return to work, there were more job opportunities in my field where we lived than there would have been in Ontario, and I had no problems landing a good job close by. After a few years at one job, I got a better one, also nearby. My commute? Never any longer than 15 minutes.
And I was able to escape 40+ years of northern winters when we moved south a few years ago. My former husband says he enjoys his job here (for a large French electronics firm) more than any other he's had. And yeah, he's happy with his salary, especially considering the COL here is lower in some respects. For my field of work, I think I'd make more money in Canada, depending on location and specific job. And that's just fine.
I make a decent income with great benefits, and the people here are among the warmest and most welcoming I've known. The climate's fabulous with plenty of sunshine, the region is beautiful, there's lots of outdoor activities year-round and enough culture to keep most people satisfied. What I like most is that people here are laid-back and know how to enjoy life. Even among other professionals I know and work with, I find they are far less status conscious and do not define themselves by their job titles or how big their house is, etc. That's what's important to me.
As much as I enjoy what I do for a living, I do NOT live to work and never have. I no longer want to live in a work-oriented, hyper-competitive culture like there is in some northern states and Southern Ontario. I don't really care about "stuff," and many Canadians have become as materialistic as many Americans are. Could I find that more laid-back lifestyle I value in another part of Canada? I'm sure I could, but then I'd be back to the winters. I absolutely loved living in Montreal as a teenager, but there were those winters.
So, yes, I have here what is a "better life" for me. Different strokes...
I made it clear in my post that I respect that people are different and that the choice to leave one's homeland is a personal choice.. I for one am cut from a very different cloth than you and I think most Canadians are quite frankly.. We wouldn't want to leave our country permanently for another because there is a sense of pride in living here and being a Canadian. Ultimately, if you are working here, pay taxes here and are supporting the economy here than you are supporting your homeland in a fundamentally important way. People with roots in the country that stick with it are truly the bread and butter of any society.
It just so happens you have chosen to root yourself somewhere else and are now a proud American - even your handle is such that you take pride in your new home and honestly as much as I'm happy for you and your family I just could never relate to permanently leaving our great nation for another. There are probably plenty of Americans who feel the same way, even if they had better job or life opportunities in Canada - they have a pride in homeland and want to support it thick and thin and I can relate! As I said before, if everyone in Canada wanted to leave we'd be up s**t creek without a paddle - think of what would be lost. I for one will make a solid and principled choice to stay and support this great land through thick and thin! Is this wrong? I'm in the prime of my life at an age where I can support this nation in the most meaningful way - should I and every Canadian who is of working age leave Canada? What will happen to the country, would you feel any sense of loss for it?
Well if it's particular to a demographic, I'll describe mine: snowbirds.
Climate explains a lot of it but not all; factor in the general availability of amenities that go with a country of 350 million inhabitants and it's a tough contest for sure. Food, drink, activities abound and usually cheaper in the bargain due to competitive nature of business's all vying for a piece of that huge action.
The single over riding feature though has to be the bounty of like minded people who've arrived at a time in their lives when enjoyment of remaining time is priority one with no axes to grind. With a population of 350 mil, there's far more of those boomers to join ranks with in the sunny southern climes.
I can understand that someone who is in the sunset phase of their life moving to a nicer climate - the bones aren't what they used to be and I get that - Having said that, true red and white canucks wouldn't leave the homeland when the country needs them the most (from their mid twenties until late fifties). Canada has afforded us such wonderful opportunities in this life. I have travelled to many a third world country and we are immensely lucky to be where we are from and I for one want to pay back as much as I can to a nation that stands for what it does and offering us so much in this life. So what that the winter is cold for four months or that you are more apt to live in a smaller house or an apartment.
This is a very fair post and I agree with most of it.
Two things: I don't think education makes that big of a difference honestly. The cost of university in both countries is highly variable. Obviously most people arent going to go to Harvard, and it isnt because of the cost. Grants are plentiful and you can also get financial aid. This is only taking into account the 1/3 of the population who actually get a bachelors degree. Community College is very affordable, like up the road we have the #1 community college in the US and it is about $250 a class. Anyways, university is only 4 years, and for an in state student (the route most college students take) it costs about $7-8,000 each year, not a whole lot different from Canada.
Healthcare , this also depends, but I mostly agree. We pay through taxes but Americans pay out of pocket, and in general Americans pay more for prescriptions, etc. But also keep in mind that many Americans, if I have to guess I'd say over 1/3 get health care through their employer. The health care that is available in the US is top notch, honestly better than Canada hands down, but of course you have to pay for it or have an employer pay for it. In school the university might pay for it (depends), but now thanks to Obama many people who are unemployed just sign up on their website and now get their healthcare paid for along with 1$ prescriptions. I think this varies by state, but I have college friends living in MD who have their healthcare covered by the state of Maryland at no charge to them.
I also don't agree about lower middle class people. I think the lower middle class in the US lives like the regular middle class in Canada. By lower middle class I mean a person living in a place like this:
For the actual lower class there is a good argument, but it also really depends. You'd be surprised that many lower class Americans DONT want government help at all. Many lower class Americans are the staunchest conservative voters, who want the government OUT of their lives, and instead just want a job instead of a handout. This is something that I think is hard for Europeans especially to understand, that Americans (especially whites) DONT want free stuff from the government. This sets Americans apart from other western countries. When Americans become poor they want LESS government, when Canadians/Europeans become poor they want MORE government. The exception are a large percentage of African Americans who like Canadians and Europeans generally vote for more government benefits when they are in the lower class.
You can't make generalizations in either country across the board in a neat and tidy way.. Some places in the U.S are simply going to have a higher COL than other places in Canada and vice versa.. Same with education and HC costs so all we can do is make rather broad brush stroked conclusions that are largely useless.
Now to be honest and I may sound like a broken record - I agree with Jonathan that largely there isn't much of a material difference between the QOL or overall COL for the average joe in either Canada or the U.S.. Upper class i'd give the edge to the U.S and lower class the edge to Canada but even those conclusions aren't exactly across the board... This is HIGHLY generalized stuff and I get that. This is why i'm the first to say I don't think that for the vast majority of people living in either country that one is clearly a better country than the other.
I for one would not leave my country for another when I'm in the prime of my life being able to offer it my all, in tax dollars, in working hard for a homegrown company to strengthen and advance the position of my nation. This the nation that my Grandfather lost an eye for in WW2.. I will never forget his sacrifice for this nation and I for one want to pay it back because I respect immensely what it has ,does and will stand for at its heart and soul. It deserves our support!
I made it clear in my post that I respect that people are different and that the choice to leave one's homeland is a personal choice.. I for one am cut from a very different cloth than you and I think most Canadians are quite frankly.. We wouldn't want to leave our country permanently for another because there is a sense of pride in living here and being a Canadian. Ultimately, if you are working here, pay taxes here and are supporting the economy here than you are supporting your homeland in a fundamentally important way. People with roots in the country that stick with it are truly the bread and butter of any society.
It just so happens you have chosen to root yourself somewhere else and are now a proud American - even your handle is such that you take pride in your new home and honestly as much as I'm happy for you and your family I just could never relate to permanently leaving our great nation for another. There are probably plenty of Americans who feel the same way, even if they had better job or life opportunities in Canada - they have a pride in homeland and want to support it thick and thin and I can relate! As I said before, if everyone in Canada wanted to leave we'd be up s**t creek without a paddle - think of what would be lost. I for one will make a solid and principled choice to stay and support this great land through thick and thin! Is this wrong? I'm in the prime of my life at an age where I can support this nation in the most meaningful way - should I and every Canadian who is of working age leave Canada? What will happen to the country, would you feel any sense of loss for it?
Congratulation for being the most patriotic Canadian! The way you've posted over and over about your stand makes me wonder whom you're trying to convince.
People should be allowed to move to wherever they choose without being made guilty. Who are you to judge anyway? To pursue one's happiness, IMHO, is the most basic human right. Whatever the happiness maybe, whether it's warmer climate, more income, better job prospect, etc.
Besides, the thread is not about whether one should move to US or not. It's about why more Canadians move to the US than the other way around. I bet if Canada's weather and job prospects were as vibrant as the US, the statistics would say differently.
Last edited by graceC; 10-01-2014 at 05:41 AM..
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The way you've posted over and over about your stand makes me wonder whom you're trying to convince.