Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
When speaking of those within the Separatist movement, you can't ignore the fact that some if not many simply want their own country and there will be no appeasement other than that outcome. I think someone else stated correctly that we need to work with the 60% plus who do want to work within a united Canada.
You're drawing alot from what I said which was simply that there are going to be those in the secessionist movement (I didn't say what percentage of those I don't know) whereby appeasement simply won't work - they just want to separate and that is their position - there is no desire to work for unity. I'm using current stats for support re separation not 1980 or 1995... In modern times - not when when some posters in here were 4 y.o.. Support for separation is at best 40 percent and hasn't been stronger than that for some time! This is an uncomfortable truth that many in here don't want to accept.
As for Quebec's economy and just like that of Ontario's - if the dollar keeps getting lower and the price of oil stays low balled - that will do a lot more for the central Canada manufacturing sector machine and the increased exports that will result than the movement will be able to do.
If you read all my posts btw - i'm very supportive of doing more to work with all regions of Canada including Quebec (Its not a matter of just giving a certain number of people what they want at all costs, its continually listening and working dynamically with all parts of the nation)... Heck - few places in the union have crap bombs thrown at them more than Toronto - the place MANY in Canada irrationally love to hate for no particularly good reason...
As for how many in Quebec are for or against separation being francophone or not - are you trying to create division in the province for those citizens who aren't francophone as if they don't matter - maybe you are referring to what Mr Parizeau referred to back in 1995, money and the ethnic vote.. Are those the people?
You're drawing alot from what I said which was simply that there are going to be those in the secessionist movement (I didn't say what percentage of those I don't know) whereby appeasement simply won't work - they just want to separate and that is their position - there is no desire to work for unity. I'm using current stats for support re separation not 1980 or 1995... In modern times - not when when some posters in here were 4 y.o.. Support for separation is at best 40 percent and hasn't been stronger than that for some time! This is an uncomfortable truth that many in here don't want to accept.
As for Quebec's economy and just like that of Ontario's - if the dollar keeps getting lower and the price of oil stays low balled - that will do a lot more for the central Canada manufacturing sector machine and the increased exports that will result than the movement will be able to do.
If you read all my posts btw - i'm very supportive of doing more to work with all regions of Canada including Quebec (Its not a matter of just giving a certain number of people what they want at all costs, its continually listening and working dynamically with all parts of the nation)... Heck - few places in the union have crap bombs thrown at them more than Toronto - the place MANY in Canada irrationally love to hate for no particularly good reason...
If you read all my posts btw - i'm very supportive of doing more to work with all regions of Canada including Quebec (Its not a matter of just giving a certain number of people what they want at all costs, its continually listening and working dynamically with all parts of the nation)... Heck - few places in the union have crap bombs thrown at them more than Toronto - the place MANY in Canada irrationally love to hate for no particularly good reason...
You do not even have the first clue here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
As for how many in Quebec are for or against separation being francophone or not - are you trying to create division in the province for those citizens who aren't francophone as if they don't matter - maybe you are referring to what Mr Parizeau referred to back in 1995, money and the ethnic vote.. Are those the people?
Majority rules. If you don't want to run with the herd, you can't expect it to stop or go around you. Canada constantly tries to do this, but it is doomed to failure.
Like the Aboriginals, the French have no choice but to separate and form their own independent nation or allow the natural dispersion and assimilation of their culture into the greater whole. There is no other way. The "you in your corner, us in ours" approach does not make for a healthy nation. In fact, by very definition it creates a failed one.
I'm tired of being held hostage or having to bend over backwards to accommodate a few petulant crybabies. The English won the war. It's done. If you don't like the game, take your ball and go home, or choose to join in and make a stronger team. We are becoming a nation of self-interested silos, and cohesion is rapidly diminishing. Of course, this has been the plan all along, to facilitate a North American union.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
This is a post completely bereft of global geopolitical knowledge, I am afraid to say.
^ Yeah, really.
Just a couple of comments on your post, NYEd, regardless.
I'm nitpicking, I know, but this makes me crazy: "The English won the war." The "English didn't "win" any war; the British "won" the war, if there was in fact any war to be "won."
And the "plan all along [has been] to facilitate a North American union"? Paranoid much? Really, I don't know why you'd oppose a potential NA union, because it sounds to me like you'd fit in real nicely with all the Preppers.
I don't know why you draw the conclusions you do to be honest.. The way I see it - it shouldn't matter who in Quebec is eligible to vote one way or another - if they are pink, green, blue, white, Francophone, Anglophone - shouldn't make a difference - a vote is a vote an equal vote.. If you feel otherwise maybe you should come out of the closet about that - Why? You were the one who marginalized people in your post by trying to make this a Francophone Quebecer vs everyone else Quebecer affair by underscoring that point and asking me where support for separation WAS in referendums of the past amongst certain groups....You wanted to play with that fire so don't try and turn that around on me.. All i've maintained is that In recent times - Quebec as a whole support for separation is low and at 40 percent and again, something that can't be denied.
You don't need to provide stats on where support was back then, its been provided in this forum and i'm more than aware of those stats.. Again, I point you to where things are now and where support for separation is now in Quebec irregardless of whether the support if from Francophones or not and in what percentages.. You are trying to create an enemy in me, one who doesn't exist - i'm all for working with EVERY part of the nation to build a stronger union but I realize that no matter what is done some individuals and some factions will not be appeased...Its not just Quebec Separatists - there are some minority segments in the R.O.C who would like to see the country fracture as well..To deny that reality is naive!
I don't know why you draw the conclusions you do to be honest.. The way I see it - it shouldn't matter who in Quebec is eligible to vote one way or another - if they are pink, green, blue, white, Francophone, Anglophone - shouldn't make a difference - a vote is a vote an equal vote.. If you feel otherwise maybe you should come out of the closet about that - Why? You were the one who excluded people in your post and tried to make this a Francophone Quebecer vs everyone else Quebecer by underscoring that point and asking me where support for separation WAS in referendums of the past amongst certain groups....
You don't need to provide stats on where support was back then, its been provided in this forum and i'm more than aware of those stats.. Again, I point you to where things are now and where support for separation is now.. You are trying to create an enemy in me, one who doesn't exist - i'm all for working with EVERY part of the nation to build a stronger union...
You draw one too many conclusions!
I'm drawing too many conclusions? You are the one trying to say I want to exclude anglophones and non whites from voting....where did I say anything like this? I am not allowed to say that independence is more popular among francophones? You are still trying to pin the "Quebec is racist card" on me. I get the feeling that one can only say that Canada is the best and I am loyal to Canada under all circumstances, if not then I am just another racist Quebecer...
The way I see it - it shouldn't matter who in Quebec is eligible to vote one way or another - if they are pink, green, blue, white, Francophone, Anglophone - shouldn't make a difference - a vote is a vote an equal vote.. If you feel otherwise maybe you should come out of the closet about that - Why? You were the one who marginalized people in your post by trying to make this a Francophone Quebecer vs everyone else Quebecer affair by underscoring that point and asking me where support for separation WAS in referendums of the past amongst certain groups....You wanted to play with that fire so don't try and turn that around on me..
Seriously? Where did he say anything remotely racist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
If you read all my posts btw - i'm very supportive of doing more to work with all regions of Canada including Quebec (Its not a matter of just giving a certain number of people what they want at all costs, its continually listening and working dynamically with all parts of the nation)... Heck - few places in the union have crap bombs thrown at them more than Toronto - the place MANY in Canada irrationally love to hate for no particularly good reason...
Funny, because here is a guy who claims to be a "no" voter and your primary tactics so far are telling him what's what and painting him as a closet racist. You claim to be interested in working together? On whose terms?
I'm drawing too many conclusions? You are the one trying to say I want to exclude anglophones and non whites from voting....where did I say anything like this? I am not allowed to say that independence is more popular among francophones? You are still trying to pin the "Quebec is racist card" on me. I get the feeling that one can only say that Canada is the best and I am loyal to Canada under all circumstances, if not then I am just another racist Quebecer...
What difference does it make about whether support was greater amongst Francophones or Anglophones in past referendums? You brought it up I don't see the need to go down that road so what is the point, why'd you bring it up? Great, support was greater for separation amongst Francophones when almost 50 percent of Quebec wanted Separation - now its 40 percent so presumable that number has evened out but its all a moot point - Anglophone or Francophone Quebecer a Quebecer is a Quebecer..
As for the second part of your post.. I clearly DID not avoid the question and made that clear many posts back - you just come into this thread and that start launching missiles without reading the whole thing for context.. I suggest you read the whole thread and you'll find your answers...
I've spent more time in Quebec and know more Quebecers than any other province than Ontario btw...There are many parts of Canada and its cultures/people's I don't know as much as
I would like - we're all guilty of that including Quebecers so guilt trip isn't really going to work with me.
Why don't you just spell out what it is you think that the R.O.C needs to do to become more integrated with Quebec.. I've suggested that English Canada should require all H.S students to be fluent in French before getting a H.S diploma..
As for a national discussion - You may even get other groups chiming in and saying the same thing so just be ready for that.. I'm open to bringing that out in the open.. I'm an agreeable guy actually! You say I have no clue - do you?
Seriously? Where did he say anything remotely racist?
Funny, because here is a guy who claims to be a "no" voter and your primary tactics so far are telling him what's what and painting him as a closet racist. You claim to be interested in working together? On whose terms?
First part - Did I use the term racist? He went down the road of dividing up the votes by various groups I didn't!
The second part is ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a response..
What difference does it make about whether support was greater amongst Francophones or Anglophones in past referendums? You brought it up I don't see the need to go down that road so what is the point, why'd you bring it up? Great, support was greater for separation amongst Francophones when almost 50 percent of Quebec wanted Separation - now its 40 percent so presumable that number has evened out but its all a moot point - Anglophone or Francophone Quebecer a Quebecer is a Quebecer..
As for the second part of your post.. I clearly DID not avoid the question and made that clear many posts back - you just come into this thread and that start launching missiles without reading the whole thing for context.. I suggest you read the whole thread and you'll find your answers...
I've spent more time in Quebec and know more Quebecers than any other province than Ontario btw...There are many parts of Canada and its cultures/people's I don't know as much as
I would like - we're all guilty of that including Quebecers so guilt trip isn't really going to work with me.
Why don't you just spell out what it is you think that the R.O.C needs to do to become more integrated with Quebec.. I've suggested that English Canada should require all H.S students to be fluent in French before getting a H.S diploma..
As for a national discussion - You may even get other groups chiming in and saying the same thing so just be ready for that.. I'm open to bringing that out in the open.. I'm an agreeable guy actually! You say I have no clue - do you?
You suggest that all anglophones become fluent in French to finish school? That is a big suggestion coming from a guy who doesn't know French himself. Apparantley even this is too much to ask. In any event, it has been tried and anglos are opposed to this. Oh you ask my opinion on the best path to follow? Independence. I put my faith in the promises of Canada in 1995 and nothing has been delivered. If you must know I didn't vote PQ in april either. But I know that with time this is the ultimate goal. If something better comes along I will consider it, but I have learned through years that these promises of devolution are only more broken promises in a long line. I am not going to run out and mindlessly vote for any seperatist because it is not something I believe can be rushed into. I am part of your 60% so maybe it is time to evaluate your calculations.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Paranoid much? Really, I don't know why you'd oppose a potential NA union, because it sounds to me like you'd fit in real nicely with all the Preppers.
