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Are you being serious? "Not quite white enough"......really? Do you see what you just did there???
The only person discredited by mention is Parizeau himself and it is public record he said what he said in front of news cameras for crying out loud!
Marois was elected because she was perceived as a "pit-bull" and would tackle Anglos head to head. I was present during some of the celebrations and the comments were thusly crafted.
Now we're expected to believe she was not re-elected because Les Quebecois had difficulties with her "personality" being too .......adversarial?
Seriously, the PQ should hire you to play the role of self-absorbed Anglo #12458998. They could just let you talk and watch their support surge.
Where is the inference that Anglophone votes shouldn't count?
Here is his supposedly ethnocentric quote:
The only "inferrence" is that among the 30% of strongly anti-secessionist voters, the numbers of francophones (the important minority that makes Canada "bilingual") are disproportionately low. I see nothing whatsoever that infers that certain groups should be stripped of the vote. Yet two pages later, you are posting Jacques Parizeau quotes and erecting strawmen for the "Quebec is racist" angle.
Some of you really draw fantastical conclusions - great imaginations... Actually I don't think Quebec or Canada is a racist society but like any, there are certainly elements within who are...
Parizeau is fair game - he was a champion of secession movement in the 90's that so many like to bring us back to.. why shouldn't the matter be discussed?
As for your comment about being a self absorbed anglo #.......... - hmmmm i'll let others draw conclusions about that but I would say that is a case of discrimation in reverse than what some would like to portray here!
A person accuses another poster of twisting his words so it looks like he's a racist when in fact no such thing has taken place and no such accusation has basis in fact but you jump on to add to the nonsense with a further admonishment towards fusion based upon something that he did not do and never happened!
I'm old I know, but am I the only one having a problem keeping up with this stuff?
Why can't we discuss this stupid topic without all the historionics? Disagreements are healthy only so long as they stay civil.
I imagine you missed the part where he accused me of inferring only francophones count. Or you missed the part that he talks about me as a racist in several posts in a row even when I tell him he is misunderstanding. After a while you become familiar with this behaviour. Its not like I was born yesterday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
I don't know why you draw the conclusions you do to be honest.. The way I see it - it shouldn't matter who in Quebec is eligible to vote one way or another - if they are pink, green, blue, white, Francophone, Anglophone - shouldn't make a difference - a vote is a vote an equal vote.. If you feel otherwise maybe you should come out of the closet about that - Why? You were the one who marginalized people in your post by trying to make this a Francophone Quebecer vs everyone else Quebecer affair by underscoring that point and asking me where support for separation WAS in referendums of the past amongst certain groups....You wanted to play with that fire so don't try and turn that around on me..
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Let me ask you a Question since you think I don't understand Quebec - should Anglophone votes regarding a referendum in Quebec be respected or rejected even if the Anglophone meets voting requirements? Which votes in a Quebec referendum should be respected and what would your requirements be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
What difference does it make about whether support was greater amongst Francophones or Anglophones in past referendums? You brought it up I don't see the need to go down that road so what is the point, why'd you bring it up? Great, support was greater for separation amongst Francophones when almost 50 percent of Quebec wanted Separation - now its 40 percent so presumable that number has evened out but its all a moot point - Anglophone or Francophone Quebecer a Quebecer is a Quebecer..
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
As for how many in Quebec are for or against separation being francophone or not - are you trying to create division in the province for those citizens who aren't francophone as if they don't matter - maybe you are referring to what Mr Parizeau referred to back in 1995, money and the ethnic vote.. Are those the people?
And for the last time I will answer this last final post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
So question for you - Should Anglophone votes count in a Quebec referendum? What would your requirements be.. Its really a simply question.
I imagine you missed the part where he accused me of inferring only francophones count. Or you missed the part that he talks about me as a racist in several posts in a row even when I tell him he is misunderstanding. After a while you become familiar with this behaviour. Its not like I was born yesterday.
And for the last time I will answer this last final post:
I don't buy it! I think we both know your mind was made up about this issue well before this thread.. Look at the very first sentence you posted in this thread.... As soon as I said for some - there is no appeasement, there are no negotiations, there is no bridge building you started to launch scuds... Right... What you have contributed to this discussion is to emphasize that in past referendums - secession was more popular amongst francophones than anglophones and this matters because.. didn't want to delve into that did you.. You may rile up the sympathies of some in here who will fall for this elaborate rouse but it is all too convenient imo..
Btw - Good job on the attack towards me regarding not speaking French and therefore my suggestion that all H.S students in the R.O.C should be required to speak French before graduation was null and void as a result..
I imagine you missed the part where he accused me of inferring only francophones count. Or you missed the part that he talks about me as a racist in several posts in a row even when I tell him he is misunderstanding. After a while you become familiar with this behaviour. Its not like I was born yesterday.
And for the last time I will answer this last final post:
I had an interesting conversation with another retired Canadian from Vancouver on a practice putting green down here in Florida this morning and we were discussing how young parents today tend to take some negative comments about their children too seriously and worry overmuch.
He related the example given over the phone with his daughter the day before of how she and her husband were concerned due to their child, enrolled in Kindergarten, getting a poor assessment due to his not being able to count backwards from ten in French in a timely fashion. Imagine that.
You disagree, you take a rigid position based upon a few posts in a thread. Would it be possible that you were already firmly entrenched and merely sought one more justification for that position?
If you are younger; it's probably past due to mention the future of this country and possibly that of Quebec are in the hands of yourself and fusion. The rest of us will very likely just have to watch from the sidelines.
Some say that they are a nuisance. Others see them as freedom fighters. Since the conquest of French Canada in the mid 1700's, there has been a conceted effort to keep Quebecois culture alive amidst a sea of over 330 million Anglos. Despite being marginalization by the Anglo-dominated government and being assimilated in other provinces, French speakers have persisted as the majority in the province of Quebec. The Quebec seperatists lost referendums for independence in 1980 and 1995 (the second time by a razor thin margin of 1%) but these elections have been called into question under allegations of vote tampering and fraud. Despite these defeats, independence remains a permanent fixture in Quebec and greater Canadian politics.
There are people in Quebec who want rights as Canadians, not as Quebecois. Their rights should not be subject to what may be a French Revolution style government. The provincial (they call it "national") government is already oppressive to Anglophones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91
What do you think? Does the Quebec independence movement carry legitimate grievances, or are they a group of opportunistic troublemakers?
I don't believe that secession from a democracy is ever legitimate unless both sides agree. The U.S. sure didn't see it as a legitimate movement in 1861, when Virginia's departure from the Union finally forced the Civil War.
Also, as either Chretien or Dion pointed out, if Canada is divisible Quebec is divisible. How about a border between Quebec and Canada between Westmount and the rest of the city?
I have to say that there are many mature and intelligent debates in this whole post, which I find quite enriching...
one point I'd like to bring here is that Franco and Anglo canadians share a great amount of history and values and I think, especially for those who are scared of an independant Quebec, that the post referendum political landscape would not be so different after all. I even believe that if the ROC would have been more entitled to support the independance quest of qc without fear and suspicion (mainly kindled by the media) 95 was a go for independance, I think really. Many many french quebecers vote no, because they did not want to alienate or break the relationship with their canadian neighbors.
That being said, I tend to believe that the current status of Qc is an excellent gray area for politicians to sell whatever they'd like to. I am personnally unconfortable with quebec blaming canadian unsensitivity and canadians blaming quebecers for their unsatisfiability (not sure if the word exist, but you understand right? )
and that leads to my other point is that...how serious are thoses political changes? Are we putting too much credit to theses changes? Enterprises would still want interact, qc would not want to slow down business with uneffective customs, scientific cooperation would still be wanted...etc, are we, as simple citizens favourising status quo in fear of a change that is not that dramatic in real?
Lastly there is no such FLQ type of organization that could survive in QC, considering that all quebecers were also traumatised by that sad period of our story.
If Quebec seceded, would Canadians outside the province have a chance to join Quebec before it left? Would that opportunity be afforded to anglophones? What would that mean for people with Quebecois background (say one parent or grandparent, etc.) but couldn't speak fluent French at that point? Do you think they would allow two passports for Canada + Quebec?
I don't know if this was overlooked. I'm still curious to hear what some people think.
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Do you see what you just did there???
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