Sad to read what people feed their cats (drinks, olive, healthy)
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Why would you quote one VET because Op says they do not know what they are talking about on feeding cats. I say I will follow my vet rather than some internet expert. Friends 22 year old cat is doing well without do what Op states as fact.
Why would you quote one VET because Op says they do not know what they are talking about on feeding cats. I say I will follow my vet rather than some internet expert. Friends 22 year old cat is doing well without do what Op states as fact.
I think it's possible you've not ever gone to read Dr Lisa's online book. If you had, you'd know she's done intensive research before writing the book. She Has cats, and she's saved countless others through changing their diets.
As far as I can find out, she's one of the very first to come against all the inaccurate myths and promotions by the main stream cat food industry which has perpetuated the false and inaccurate data which is taught to Vets when they are in school. I venture to say there's a vast lobby within the pet food industry which keeps the myths going: after all, customers who are unenlightened spend Billions of $$$ a year.
And, Dave, it's not just one vet...there are increasing numbers who are writing books about this topic, and who have developed a presence online. Earlier in the thread you can find the links.
Link your credential as a expert. Wet food alone ruins their teeth .
And how do you come to believe that? What credential do you have to substantiate that comment? It isn't true that "wet food ruins teeth" and I'm not sure why anyone would think that.
The pet food manufactures have perpetuated the lie that "dry food is good for teeth" because it sells dry food.
Dry food does not clean teeth. I wish people would actually think about what they are saying when they say this. How can dry food "clean" teeth? Seriously it makes no sense at all. Dry food is a high carb crouton. Carbs turn into sugar, in the mouth. If the cat bites into the kibble at al,l it shatters (cats do not have grinding teeth) making crumbs. These crumbs of pure sugar stick to the teeth, they stick between the teeth and the get under the gum line.
These crumbs then sit there and breed bacteria. Which turns to plaque. Which then turns to tartar, which leads to gingivitis and dental disease, which leads (coming full circle) diseases such as kindey disease and heart disease.
Dry food doesn't clean teeth any more than you eating pretzels or fritos would clean your teeth.
Wet food doesn't "rot teeth" The high moisture content helps the food wash down through the mouth into the digestive tract. No crumbs. Wet food doesn't "clean teeth" either. Neither wet nor dry has any dental benefit, but dry is detrimental. Wet provides adequate moisture, so provides great benefit to overall health, which dry food does not do.
The only diet that is "good for their teeth" is a prey model raw diet (chunks of raw muscle meat, raw organ meat and raw bone) or a whole prey diet, which is feeding day old chicks, feeder mice, rabbits etc.
Many people, even non raw feeders, give their cats a wing or a few gizzards every week to help the cat's dental health.
I said this a few posts back but maybe you didn't read it. Think about this please: A horse is fed grass, hay, corn and oat. Why is that? Because that is what nature designed a horse to eat. If you fed a horse meat, the horse would have very poor health, lower quality of life, and in fact get very sick. No one would even think of feeding a horse meat.
Yeah I saw but didn't see they guy, will do this OK. Know a dude who keeps horses and next time I see him, ask what he'd do about his horse vet if they told him, no PRESCRIBE feed his horses meat or the horses could die. Can predict what hell say but will ask anyway so he can tell me put down the crack pipe!
You compare prescription food as bad as THAT, all it does is make wonder even MORE that nobody outside on here HAS ANY PROBLEM WITH prescription cat foods prescribed EVERYWHERE ALL THE PEOPLE ARE WRONG just like the truth site being no different and noone cares outside here since 20 years.
Why would you quote one VET because Op says they do not know what they are talking about on feeding cats. I say I will follow my vet rather than some internet expert. Friends 22 year old cat is doing well without do what Op states as fact.
Internet experts! Obviously, you have not bothered to look at the sites I posted - all sites which explicitly document the scientific data to support their claims about cat nutrition.
Your vet cannot even do that. I promise you. They have no training in nutrition.
Yeah I saw but didn't see they guy, will do this OK. Know a dude who keeps horses and next time I see him, ask what he'd do about his horse vet if they told him, no PRESCRIBE feed his horses meat or the horses could die. Can predict what hell say but will ask anyway so he can tell me put down the crack pipe!
You compare prescription food as bad as THAT, all it does is make wonder even MORE that nobody outside on here HAS ANY PROBLEM WITH prescription cat foods prescribed EVERYWHERE ALL THE PEOPLE ARE WRONG just like the truth site being no different and noone cares outside here since 20 years.
Just because a large portion of pet owners, and veterinarians, still believe dry and prescription food is not harmful does not make it so. In the early part of the last century people were taking all sorts of 'remedies' & medicines that were supposed to 'cure what ails you', that were in reality quite harmful and did no good at all. There were even x-ray machines for your feet (that were so radioactive they caused cancer) as late as the 1950's. People didn't know any better, and it took a long time to change that. Smoking is a good example, as it was once considered therapeutic, and even though evidence of the dangers of smoking has been wide spread for 50 years, people are still doing it & denying it's all that bad for them.
Changing long established mindsets about something that applies to so many people across the country just isn't going to happen overnight, especially when you have a billion dollar pet food industry involved with a vested interest in keeping the status quo. The pet owners & vets you come in contact with may not be aware of any of this new information about pet nutrition, and don't think there is a problem. But that doesn't mean that there isn't one.
It's real easy posting that and "get educated" to people who depend on vets because pet can't talk. Well vets DID literally get educated. About PETS. So where else can people take them? Everyone can't take our pets to the internet and this post!
Even if the vets are brainwashed whatever, just don't know, greedy and on and on, they aren't even the ONLY ones telling everybody this thing is medicine, see what I mean?
I understand your frustration.
I get tired of the "vets are uneducated about nutrition!" line that is commonly trotted out, and its counterpart, the assertion that they only recommend the prescription diets out of greed. The assumption that someone with at DVM knows nothing about nutrition, but a random person with internet access is an expert (I guess no vets have internet access?) is fairly weak to me.
Prescription kibble is not the most excellent feeding option. However, it is standardized, predictable, and easy. When a vet is making a recommendation to a client, they have to consider not only what the best treatment is, but what the client is likely to comply with, and to implement properly. If home aftercare is to complex, too expensive, too gross, or too time-consuming, the client is likely to implement it poorly or not at all.
Vets routinely see the sometimes disastrous health results of unbalanced homemade diets. Recalls and product alerts of various commercial foods are also common, and put people up in arms. The prescription diets therefore become a go-to option for vets to recommend because they are balanced (in terms of the nutrients, vitamins and minerals) needed by the animals, and because they are of a standardized level of quality. An excellent homemade/raw diet is better than prescription feed, but prescription feed is lightyears better than an unbalanced, deficient homemade/raw diet.
Now, should vets give more credit to their clients? Spend more time on education and discussion of the options? Certainly this would be the ideal. But looking at our population, it's easy to see why they may begin to assume that everyone just wants a quick fix and out the door. And people are often terrible readers and terrible listeners. And the reality is also that the vet really does need to see a sufficient number of clients in a day to keep the bills paid.
On that topic, of course the vet would prefer you purchase food and meds through them than through an online retailer. The bookstore would also prefer you buy books there rather than through Amazon. That doesn't mean they're trying to cheat readers, that means they want to stay in business. But when a bookstore goes out of business, you can still rely on the internet for your book needs - whereas when a vet goes out of business, who will see one's pet in an emergency? It's not ideal, but I think it is understandable.
As far as commercial or prescription dry food versus wet goes, the key difference is not in any of the ingredients, but in the moisture content. Cats are well known for not drinking sufficient water from the water bowl, and this is hard on their organs. There are many ways to get extra liquid into the pet even if one relies on dry kibble. I think it is productive to discuss these as well, since the fact is that people are going to use kibble, regardless of the guilt trips some may attempt to lay about it.
I get tired of the "vets are uneducated about nutrition!" line that is commonly trotted out, and its counterpart, the assertion that they only recommend the prescription diets out of greed. The assumption that someone with at DVM knows nothing about nutrition, but a random person with internet access is an expert (I guess no vets have internet access?) is fairly weak to me.
Vets routinely see the sometimes disastrous health results of unbalanced homemade diets. Recalls and product alerts of various commercial foods are also common, and put people up in arms. The prescription diets therefore become a go-to option for vets to recommend because they are balanced (in terms of the nutrients, vitamins and minerals) needed by the animals, and because they are of a standardized level of quality. An excellent homemade/raw diet is better than prescription feed, but prescription feed is lightyears better than an unbalanced, deficient homemade/raw diet.
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Veterinary diets (so called "prescription") have appeared on many recall lists over the years.
I agree that an unbalanced home made diet is a concern. But it's not either or. Either a prescription diet or home made? Of course not. Many of us recommend people feed an all canned diet, to everyone. I have said even in this thread "if you must feed the prescription, feed the canned only". It's not very good quality, but at least it contains some meat, and is wet.
I go a bit further and let people know that raw feeding is an option if they are interested. It takes a lot of work and constant learning and brushing up, if you do it at home. If you feed commercial raw, its a bit easier.
I know a vet who says, and as far as I can tell actually believes this: That as long as the correct ratio of vitamins and minerals are supplied, it doesn't matter what the cat is fed. Meaning you can feed your cat a bag of corn nuggets as long as it has the right amount of chemicals to show it as balanced for a cat ( a a standard set by the AFFCO) on paper. He favors Royal Canin. Guess they taught him that in his "Pet Nutrition" lecture. That was given by a Royal Canin rep. That is a very very scary vet.
Never mind that the stuff is completely indigestible to a cat, after all, when tested, this food shows the right numbers. Feeding trials are not more than six months! There is no long term knowledge about the damage these dry foods do in these "clinical trials", you have to wait until the cat has lived for years on it. Then the diseases are blamed on "old age". Even when the cat isn't all that old.
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Now, should vets give more credit to their clients? Spend more time on education and discussion of the options? Certainly this would be the ideal. But looking at our population, it's easy to see why they may begin to assume that everyone just wants a quick fix and out the door. And people are often terrible readers and terrible listeners. And the reality is also that the vet really does need to see a sufficient number of clients in a day to keep the bills paid.
And that is why the internet is such a useful tool. People have the opportunity to educate themselves since vets may (according to the above):
Know what the cats should eat but don't have the time during an appointment to advise about nutrition? (much easier and quicker to say, here just feed him this bag of high priced corn). Or if not the bag on the vet's shelf "any dry food is fine to feed".
Or vets may know what cats should eat, but don't think their clients have the intelligence or ability to understand what proper nutrition means for their pets? Or they think the client is not interested? Even if the client asks? A vet's first question in the examination should be "what are you feeding him?".
Or they just shrug and think: Why bother?
Or they get so bombarded by advertising disguised as education in vet school that they really and truly honestly believe this kind of diet is "good" for the cat. The worst most dangerous kind.
All likely in any combination I suppose. That is why there are sites like this, to get people thinking and questioning , and more advanced sites to which a number of links have been posted in this thread, for people to learn further. And, thankfully this is not the only pet forum where people are trying to help other people learn about feline nutrition, especially if it saves them and their cats from going through experiences many of us know about first hand.
Thank goodness there are more and more people learning. As they learn they make changes. As they make these changes, they see the benefits in their pets. So then..they start telling other people. Just like the people on this thread.
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On that topic, of course the vet would prefer you purchase food and meds through them than through an online retailer. The bookstore would also prefer you buy books there rather than through Amazon. That doesn't mean they're trying to cheat readers, that means they want to stay in business. But when a bookstore goes out of business, you can still rely on the internet for your book needs - whereas when a vet goes out of business, who will see one's pet in an emergency? It's not ideal, but I think it is understandable.
A bookstore is not a heath care facility. No one is disputing that a vet clinic is a business which needs to turn a profit. So we should feed our cats some awful diet just so the vet can make a better income? There is something so wrong with that.
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As far as commercial or prescription dry food versus wet goes, the key difference is not in any of the ingredients, but in the moisture content. Cats are well known for not drinking sufficient water from the water bowl, and this is hard on their organs. There are many ways to get extra liquid into the pet even if one relies on dry kibble. I think it is productive to discuss these as well, since the fact is that people are going to use kibble, regardless of the guilt trips some may attempt to lay about it
You are correct about the moisture need in the cat's diet. The reason you don't see people here making the suggestion to feed dry food but "make up the deficit some other way" is because it's not a healthy way to feed a cat. Cats should be fed a diet rich in meat and moisture, that can't be done on a dry diet.
The cat benefits from the moisture coming from the food. The only way to provide that is to feed a wet (canned) or raw diet or both. I'm not sure what other way their is to get the moisture into a cat, since a cat cannot drink enough water to make up the deficit. Adding water to the dry food doesn't create a wet diet. It creates blobs of dough that will take twice or three times as long to move through the digestive tract, slowing everything down. Imagine the stomach ache a cat has after eating something like that! Eventually, if fed that way long enough, things are slowed down permanently. A cat's "ideal" diet (a mouse) is 70% moisture. Dry food is only (maximum) 10% moisture.
If people feel guilty for feeding dry, then they must realize that dry food is not good for their cats. I'm not going to stop passing on this information because it might make someone who feeds the cat a dry diet feel guilty.
If you want to bring feelings into it, I was stunned by the feeling of deep personal satisfaction I derive from feeding my cats a raw diet, and seeing them reap the benefits. (my cats are about 30% canned, 70% raw). It's wonderful. That feeling can come from just switching to a wet diet, too.
People need to know. For their cats' sakes. AND for their sakes.
Last edited by catsmom21; 12-20-2014 at 07:24 PM..
Martha Anne, I don't disagree with you but I'd like to just do a quick reality check. There are 6 to 8 million cats and dogs entering shelters every year. 6 to 8 MILLION. Of those, 3-4 million are adopted, and approximately 3-4 MILLION are euthanized each year. I agree that feeding raw is the very best for cats, but it is difficult and time consuming. Sorry, it is, as much as you say it isn't. Not everyone can devote that amount of time and effort into nourishing their cats, and I commend you for being able to do that. But I personally would rather see a cat go to a home where it is eating dry food, where it least it can have a life and a home, instead of being euthanized or languishing in a shelter for months or years. I understand that dry food and wet food aren't absolutely ideal, but your original post came off as very "holier than thou" and honestly, it does nothing for getting cats adopted and into homes, and probably has the reverse effect. My cats were rescued as strays from the streets of Gary, Indiana and I guarantee you if it weren't for a compassionate soul (not me) taking the effort to save them, they'd be dead by now. I don't feed them a raw diet but they are happy cats that are well taken care of.
Not everyone is willing and able to do a raw diet. Period. But don't imply that people are mistreating their cats by not feeding them an optimal diet, when honestly, just giving a cat a home is so significant. So I guess my main grievance is that you are sad to see what people are feeding their cats when there are so much more important things about cats to be sad about.
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ALL THE PEOPLE ARE WRONG just like the truth site being no different and noone cares outside here since 20 years.
