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themag, I am OK with Elmwood Park. It has easy access to downtown which is good. I was there 7 (!) years ago and it looked OK. Not sure what it's like now?
urza, I was just looking at Homewood. Seems like a good place-- already found a house I like. Taxes are OK and has good schools. What is it like there? My husband is worried it is too far from everything. We are not familiar at all with anything south.
cubssox, I have been checking out those suburbs. Was surprised when I looked up a school in Palatine that it did not score so well. For some reason I thought that would not be a concern. However, I know that those ratings are far from the end all/be all, but it's the only basis I have right now. I will keep your suggestions in mind re: the school districts.
meatpuff, yeah, I know I am asking for the impossible! I know most people want "charm" (though not my husband!) and location, is, of course, key. I have been doing exactly what you said-- keeping my eye on high schools and seeing what I can get in the area. A little overwhelming since we are fairly open re: location at this point. Thank you for the suburb recommendations-- I will research them.
Regarding schools, they do NOT have to be elite. I would prefer them not to be, truth be told, because my kids will certainly not be among the "haves." I have all girls and worry about the "mean girl" attitude, as well as them seeing what they don't have compared to their friends. I would, however, like schools, where the children are respected. That is my biggest problem with some schools who serve underprivileged children, is that sometimes less is expected of them, and they function more as a warehouse/factory vs a place of inspiration and challenge.
Here is another crazy idea of mine, though my husband is not sold at all on it. What if I look at getting a 2 flat on the northside of Chicago? This seems like a good way to get a lot of space at a good price. Once my kids are older (college age) they could have their own space, and eventually we could rent out the other unit. He is concerned the space will feel to separate, but I don't see it as too different than a finished basement. Thoughts?
What is it that you want to know? I've talked about Homewood before. So has SunnyAndCloudyDays and Allen. Homewood is diverse, socially liberal and has a charming walkable downtown (even if Chuck's House of Magic, The Fiction House and Caribou Coffee are all no longer there).. The housing stock doesn't look all the same. The strip malls are on the outskirts of town not the center of town. Maybe you can check out Lassen's Bar And Grill and talk to people from the area the next time you're in Homewood.
You might want to look into a condo in downtown Homewood. Although condo prices in Homewood are comparable to houses in Park Forest and old Matteson.. Homewood is expensive by south suburban standards. I mention this because you passed by Oak Park and are considering Berwyn... I grew up in Park Forest and still spend time there on a regular basis. It's not heaven. But houses there are a great deal and you shouldn't have a hard time making a home out of Park Forest.. People who live in Park Forest go to Lassen's too.
Homewood has a local Metra station (that's walking distance from several condimium complexes). So working downtown shouldn't be a problem. It's not too far a drive to Orland, Indiana, the south side of Chicago, and is reasonably close to Kankakee... For many people such as myself, Homewood is anything but "far away from everything". Although I will be having a longer commute to work when I move there, it won't be too bad.
I love the Homewood-Flossmoor area. Our family is planning to move over the summer and if the high school wasn't so big, that would be my first choice. Very much a family-oriented and diverse community.
Homewood and Flossmoor have excellent schools, however, one thing you need to know about Homewood is their schools are grade-centered. Four schools cover PreK-2, 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8. So depending on the age of those under the 5th grader you would possibly be dealing with 3 different schools. That also means that where one kid could walk to school the others would have to be transported, depending on where you live. The only saving grace is the middle school and junior high are back-to-back.
Homewood downtown has more than Flossmoor. Homewood taxes are less because they have large shopping area, but you have to drive there. Both park districts offer lots for kids, but IMO, the costs of some of the programs are somewhat high, even for residents.
Background-- I have 5 children, with the oldest about to enter into 5th grade. We currently live in Lombard and like it, but now need a bigger house. We have a teeny budget (we'll have to rent out our current house, which makes us qualify for less) of $225.
Wants
-4 bedrooms
-Easy access to downtown via Metra (for husband's job)
-Decent schools (esp high school)
-Diversity
-At least a little bigger than typical city lot
-Fairly easy street parking
-A huge plus would be able to walk to school and other places
I grew up in Chicago (Ravenswood, then North Park/Albany Park) and worked in Little Village. I do enjoy the safety of Lombard-- but as I read somewhere on this board it is almost boringly safe. I miss the action/non-chain places of Chicago but not some of the hassles (like parking). I love our big yard!
I have never been to Berwyn but wonder if it would fit the bill. I know the HS is far from the best, but is it THAT bad? My oldest child wants to go to IMSA eventually but obviously we can't count on that. How bad is the crime compared to the places I've grown up? How congested is it?
Any idea for other suburbs? Part of me says to forget about living near Chicago and just go further west, like Geneva. (I love, love, love old homes.) My kids are part Irish/Korean and I don't want to be one of the only non all-white families there. We are considering Chicago (looked at some properties there yesterday) but I don't think I can deal with the parking again . . .
My wife and I bought a rehabbed 4-bedroom bungalow in Berwyn last year for around $200K. We both work in the Loop and we can walk to the metra stop. We got a small yard, a 2-car garage. It's great, we like our house and we like Berwyn. I would recommend you narrow your search to southwest Berwyn. That's where we live, near Proksa park. You'll have to be patient, houses in this part of Berwyn go fast. If you're not familiar with the town, I suggest coming out and driving/walking around. It's a pretty town, lots of older homes.
The elementary school and middle school by us, Emerson and Heritage, are the top-ranking schools in the city, as measured by test scores. IIRC: School The high school, Morton West, is another matter. We don't have kids yet, and I'm hoping the school improves, but right now, I wouldn't send my kid there. I think a lot of people send their kids to Fenwick. So, there's that.
Some other posters suggested Brookfield, which is nice, but you are right, you get less for your money. Riverside and Oak Park are really not in your price range. Property taxes are higher by a multiple of 3, and home prices twice as much and up. Fenwick is $12.5K/year, which is probably less than an annual property assessment in Riverside or Oak Park. You're right, it's a dilemna finding a nice place to live close to the city. Nice places are expensive, so there's some compromise involved. Based on our priorities, we chose Berwyn, and I encourage you to consider it.
Glad you like your choice, don't fall into a trap about schools / value...
The comparative data about the average performance of kids on the weak state mandated tests is not really detailed enough to help parents determine how good a fit the schools might be for their kids. There is a little more data available for schools inside CPS that attempt to measure how responsive the schools administration is, how involved other parents are and how skilled the teachers are in delivering instruction -- all trends highly correlated with schools moving in the right direction. My sense is that some of those categories are not broadly positive in the districts (elementary & high school) serving Brookfield and given the size (especially of the high school) I would not hold out much hope of that trend reversing.
I would also caution that Fenwick is not just a private school, it one run by a Catholic religous order and a pretty "hard core" one at that. Admission is selective, kids are turned down if they don't meet admissions standards. Socially there is a VERY strong network of men (the school was formerly male only) that is highly competitive and very sports focused. The atmosphere is very different than that of a public high school...
In contrast when one chooses a town like Brookfield the level of involvement that one has a community member in actively participating in the direction of the relatively small public high school shared with Riverside is dramatically different -- any tax increases are likely to be hotly debated by citizens, as are changes in academic or atheltic offerings. It is a much different kind of particitipative democraticly run organization.
I would argue that given the differnces in size and demographics the ability to be a proactive force is superior in Riverside-Brookfield than any other near-west-Cook suburb. I would not discount this as merely a trade-off for lower taxes in towns with less well run schools but an very important differnce that says a lot about the value residents place on education and the likely future direction of both schools and housing values...
I don't mean to scare anyone into thinking that Berwyn is on the verge of collapse (I certainly don't think that is the case) merely to emphasize that in the whole Chicago region there are VERY long standing ties between home prices and school quality that any shopper ought not dismiss. I also think it is important that anyone who assumes "well private schools are always an option" needs to understand that in pretty much the whole region the only private high schools available are religous and tend to be pretty "old school" in all the stereotypical ways.
I don't mean to scare anyone into thinking that Berwyn is on the verge of collapse (I certainly don't think that is the case) merely to emphasize that in the whole Chicago region there are VERY long standing ties between home prices and school quality that any shopper ought not dismiss. I also think it is important that anyone who assumes "well private schools are always an option" needs to understand that in pretty much the whole region the only private high schools available are religous and tend to be pretty "old school" in all the stereotypical ways.
What a shopper also may not want to dismiss are Emerson elementary and Heritage middle school being in the top 25% of Illinois schools. They may also want to look at the various movements in Berwyn aiming improve the public schools. CARES, What Would it Take (focus on improving Morton West), a group attempting to get a charter high school, and an increasing groundswell of people generally who understand exactly what you say in this last paragraph and as a result are demanding improvements and accountability. Certainly, no one with half a brain in Berwyn is content with the state of the public schools right now, particularly the high school!
I think all CityToBurbs 75 was suggesting is there are private school options available, taxes are reasonable, and the community is a good value, not that everyone is all good with substandard schools in exchange for low property taxes. That simply isn't so. Where this growing community sentiment will lead, who knows? There are a lot of obstacles, the most daunting of which are political, as well as a long-standing tradition of Bohemian-style cheapness towards schools that is dying out but still around and must be dealt with. Tangibly, there have been some improvements, particularly in D100, which really seems to get it and has set a goal to be in the top 25% of all school districts. Hopefully this carries over to D201, or an alternative solution can be put in place.
Agreed. It takes A MAJORITY of people who want to be involved...
I have watched similar efforts in the Hillside & Westchester area with Proviso and even though there now is a "magnet" school it really has done little to improve district test results or residential property values. Not enough broad support.
I really and truly do hope that enough folks get involved in the Morton district to make a difference to improve the existing East campus in Cicero and the West Campus in Berwyn. Magnet / charter probably not smart in the long run...
Bru, man I love ya but I've been knee deep in enough different communities that I think you are way off in assuming that "no one with half a brain is content with the public schools". I am often the LONE voice calling to attention the failings of schools that some folks value for their "diversity" or past academic glories. Believe me there are PLENTY of folks who basically break their own arms patting themselves on the back for how wonderful things are -- that includes a whole lot of folks more than willing to stick their heads in the sand about just how poorly MOST schools in this country compare to those in other industrialized nations / make excuses for kids & teachers not held accountable for poor performance, BUNCHES of folks that are darned pleased to think they get off cheap with regard to property taxes, hordes of folks that foolishly assume 'since my kids are not in school I gotta nothing to care about' and myriads of others whose brain is probably holding up their pants...
Beyond the "thriftiness" traditionally associated with Bohemia there are unfortunate political dimensions that are even harder to change. The worst part of the dilemma facing someone that would get stuck thinking they got some "killer" deal and then spending a ton of time and money fixing up a place to really make it a showplace is that without changing the broad mindset of those that run the high schools (and even neighbors that are not involved enough to understand what kids from their own block are doing...) they'll never get their money back out.
I really think it makes a whole more sense to go in only if you are committing to being not just a "renovation minded" urban pioneer type but ALSO fully committed to shaking up things so that the high schools do move in a positive direction. Having a mindset that "private schools are where I'll send my kids" largely explains why towns like Hillside & Westchester seriously lag behind areas like LaGrange -- and frankly the performance of private schools like St. Joe's in Westchester is not as good as that of a private school like Nazareth in LaGrange Park where the local school (LT) is much more desirable. Same pattern exists further west where Benet is one of the higher performing private schools drawing kids from nicer areas vs school like Driscoll shutting down because local suppport in Addison just was not strong enough...
The schools (private OR public) that sustain traditional academic success (and athletics for that matter...) are indicative of supportive communities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67
What a shopper also may not want to dismiss are Emerson elementary and Heritage middle school being in the top 25% of Illinois schools. They may also want to look at the various movements in Berwyn aiming improve the public schools. CARES, What Would it Take (focus on improving Morton West), a group attempting to get a charter high school, and an increasing groundswell of people generally who understand exactly what you say in this last paragraph and as a result are demanding improvements and accountability. Certainly, no one with half a brain in Berwyn is content with the state of the public schools right now, particularly the high school!
I think all CityToBurbs 75 was suggesting is there are private school options available, taxes are reasonable, and the community is a good value, not that everyone is all good with substandard schools in exchange for low property taxes. That simply isn't so. Where this growing community sentiment will lead, who knows? There are a lot of obstacles, the most daunting of which are political, as well as a long-standing tradition of Bohemian-style cheapness towards schools that is dying out but still around and must be dealt with. Tangibly, there have been some improvements, particularly in D100, which really seems to get it and has set a goal to be in the top 25% of all school districts. Hopefully this carries over to D201, or an alternative solution can be put in place.
Well, those communities don't have a Cicero controlled board of education with members who post racist comments on Facebook and admit they received stolen merchandise from mobsters, a high school that performs in the bottom 10% of the State, or infuriating newspaper articles which say test scores have increased when they really haven't increased at all -- the pat on the ass you were talking about, taken to an absolutely laughable extreme.
I think this is an unusual situation that has people pissed, versus a place like Westchester where it's easier to ignore. Add in a lot of young couples with young children and you get much more of an activist mindset from the community as a whole. I truly think Berwyn is unique in this regard, and I too have lived in several communities. If grass root inspired changes to an educational system will come, it will be here.
If there are enough folks that see things the way you do I am sure some changes could happen.
Good Luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67
Well, those communities don't have a Cicero controlled board of education with members who post racist comments on Facebook and admit they received stolen merchandise from mobsters, a high school that performs in the bottom 10% of the State, or infuriating newspaper articles which say test scores have increased when they really haven't increased at all -- the pat on the ass you were talking about, taken to an absolutely laughable extreme.
I think this is an unusual situation that has people pissed, versus a place like Westchester where it's easier to ignore. Add in a lot of young couples with young children and you get much more of an activist mindset from the community as a whole. I truly think Berwyn is unique in this regard, and I too have lived in several communities. If grass root inspired changes to an educational system will come, it will be here.
Berwyn? No way. For the schools and the neighborhood, I would not recommend it. For that budget I would consider Palos Hills. I am from there and yes, while I'm looking to move from there for better schools, given Palos or Berwyn, I would hands down take Palos. You can find a home, condo, townhome for that.
Taxes in Palos about $6k but for your price home, go lower.
- People assume it's expensive. However, once you get away from downtown and some newer developments on the south side, there are actually some bargains. I did a quick check, and there were in fact 4BR homes under $225K. Many of these had large lots.
- The schools are top-notch at all levels. Both high schools are at about the 96th percentile in test scores.
- If you're trying to avoid a "Mean Girls" type atmosphere, District 200 schools are relatively good. The overall environment is very positive. People generally get along. The students tended to be of good character. Even the popular kids were generally tolerant. Obviously, there's the occasional exception to all of these, but that's true anywhere. I say this as an alumnus of Wheaton North and two of its feeder schools.
- The area has significant socioeconomic diversity and even some racial diversity. For example, a substantial number of refugees are resettled in the area.
- There are two Metra stops in Wheaton. Some areas within walking distance of the College Avenue stop are relatively affordable. Parking for Metra is not overly difficult, especially at the College Avenue stop.
The factors which don't meet your criteria:
- It's roughly 25 miles due west of downtown Chicago and roughly 17 miles west of the Chicago city limits, possibly farther out than you wanted to go. But it's only two towns beyond where you are now.
- It's not really walkable. That said, there is a walkable downtown, and it's not as overly spread out as many suburbs.
If you really want to stay near the city, Evanston has very good schools and has some affordable pockets near the Chicago city limits and on the western fringes of town. However, the latter tend to be somewhat dangerous. It should be noted that Evanston has limited school choice and some magnet programs at the K-8 level, so you're not necessarily stuck attending the K-8 schools zoned for your address. Oak Park also has very good schools and some relatively affordable areas near the Chicago city limits, but some people also consider these areas to be dangerous. Both Evanston and Oak Park are walkable and very diverse.
Even if a student can get admitted to IMSA, it's not for everyone. The key thing to understand about IMSA is that you're giving up three years of the typical high school experience and the socialization it provides. It's important for gifted students to learn to relate to a wide range of people, including people with a range of abilities. IMSA students go home for academic breaks and tend to go home for the weekend. In my opinion, this isn't enough. If you're seriously considering IMSA, I'd thoroughly investigate and make sure it's really what both you and your daughter want. Be aware that alumni may not be aware of, or may not even care about, the effects of having missed out on the socialization one gets from traditional high schools. I'm also not convinced that the academics at IMSA are actually better than those at top Chicagoland high schools.
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Adding to what Urza said
