what Makes Chicago Public Schools Bad (catholic schools, teacher salaries, babysitting)

[chet everett]

...the sad reality is that the suburbs don't have much desire to hire folks with a whole bunch of years of experience in CPS or frankly any other school system that would require the teachers getting a high salary.

I think I have related the story of one of my colleagues. We both taught together in a well regarded CPS school that served both selective admissions students starting in 7th grade through high school. Because of "staffing changes" his position was eliminated. He explored the idea of moving to a suburb and although his interviews generally went great no district really expressed interest in hiring him given that he was in the highest "lane" for education (having earned as many credits as a PhD) and had considerable years of experience. He actually heard (through folks that were called to check his references) that some potential hiring districts were concerned that he lost his position due to some kind of misconduct -- staffing changes in the suburbs generally only happen for that sort of thing.
Ultimately he worked for a few more years at a less well rated CPS facility and eventually got hired at a well regarded private school in Chicago where, because of generous tuition policies for faculty, his own son attended (and recently graduated...).

Second of all the actual "difficulty" of teaching is highly subjective. If you have the ability to tune out the obvious doom that unmotivated students are setting themselves up for it can be very easy to work in CPS. Supervision is nearly non-existant in many CPS facilities. The dismissal rate for teachers is some fraction well below 0.5%

The idea that teachers should be evaluated and encouraged to perform at their best would seem really pretty basic but the CTU makes it sound like some evil plot. Hogwash. Even if the CPS leadership "had it out" for canning teachers there simply is not a large enough supply of qualified teachers to restaff more than a handful of positions every year.

The strike is partly because of the need of the dysfunctional CTU leadership having to impress their membership that the dues are worth paying and at some level it also helps Rahm's claim that he is "working for the betterment of the schools" when in fact both the CTU and Rahm / CPS leadership are all cut from the same "bigger government to foster greater dependency" mindset that infects the thinking of most folks in urban areas...

Originally Posted by 55degrees

Props for CPS teachers for having gone to school day after day all these years to teach when it would have been easier to work in the suburbs. Someone needs to stick with the kids (I don't really see the strike impeding that in the long run) in the City even though most of us would not be up to the challenge. I just don't see why you'd penalize them by basing their pay, etc on school testing.

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by 55degrees

Props for CPS teachers for having gone to school day after day all these years to teach when it would have been easier to work in the suburbs. Someone needs to stick with the kids (I don't really see the strike impeding that in the long run) in the City even though most of us would not be up to the challenge. I just don't see why you'd penalize them by basing their pay, etc on school testing.

In virtually any other profession, your performance is measured against some quantifiable measuring tool.

In a teachers profession, I would assume that the measuring stick is student performance and academic achievement. If the teachers are so against using that as the measuring stick, how do you evaluate whether a teacher is doing a good job 'teaching'?

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by 55degrees

Props for CPS teachers for having gone to school day after day all these years to teach when it would have been easier to work in the suburbs. Someone needs to stick with the kids (I don't really see the strike impeding that in the long run) in the City even though most of us would not be up to the challenge. I just don't see why you'd penalize them by basing their pay, etc on school testing.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 55degrees again.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by lenniel

In virtually any other profession, your performance is measured against some quantifiable measuring tool.

In a teachers profession, I would assume that the measuring stick is student performance and academic achievement. If the teachers are so against using that as the measuring stick, how do you evaluate whether a teacher is doing a good job 'teaching'?

It is just not that simple, as has been discussed ad nauseum in here. A few more:

Do you give a doctor low marks for not saving the life of a guy who comes to the ER after being shot in the head? Or impaled in a car accident?

Do you give a public defender low marks for not getting a client off who was caught red-handed at the scene of a crime?

Do you give the police low marks for not stopping the violence in Chicago when they have no control over the flow of weapons and drugs into the City?

Success in life on a daily grind basis rarely consists of taking multiple choice tests and scoring well.

Teachers want to be judged by people who are actually IN THE CLASSROOM observing them.

What is so controversial about this?

[chet everett]

...the potential for teachers to "put on a show" for the necessarily limited "observation session" is well known. Funny thing too is that when organization that do recognize teachers for things like "Golden Apple Awards" and such they have to rely on a broad based nomination process to ensure that they just don't go visit the classroom of a teacher that has a talent to put together one or two good days.

There will never be any evaluation system that meets the demands of the CTU.

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

It is just not that simple, as has been discussed as nauseum in here. A few more:

Do you give a doctor low marks for not saving the life of a guy who comes to the ER after being shot in the head? Or impaled in a car accident?

Do you give a public defender low marks for not getting a client off who was caught red-handed at the scene of a crime?

Do you give the police low marks for not stopping the violence in Chicago when they have no control over the flow of weapons and drugs into the City?

Success in life on a daily grind basis rarely consists of taking multiple choice tests and scoring well.

Teachers want to be judged by people who are actually IN THE CLASSROOM observing them.

What is so controversial about this?

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by chet everett

...the sad reality is that the suburbs don't have much desire to hire folks with a whole bunch of years of experience in CPS or frankly any other school system that would require the teachers getting a high salary.

I think I have related the story of one of my colleagues. We both taught together in a well regarded CPS school that served both selective admissions students starting in 7th grade through high school. Because of "staffing changes" his position was eliminated. He explored the idea of moving to a suburb and although his interviews generally went great no district really expressed interest in hiring him given that he was in the highest "lane" for education (having earned as many credits as a PhD) and had considerable years of experience. He actually heard (through folks that were called to check his references) that some potential hiring districts were concerned that he lost his position due to some kind of misconduct -- staffing changes in the suburbs generally only happen for that sort of thing.
Ultimately he worked for a few more years at a less well rated CPS facility and eventually got hired at a well regarded private school in Chicago where, because of generous tuition policies for faculty, his own son attended (and recently graduated...).

Second of all the actual "difficulty" of teaching is highly subjective. If you have the ability to tune out the obvious doom that unmotivated students are setting themselves up for it can be very easy to work in CPS. Supervision is nearly non-existant in many CPS facilities. The dismissal rate for teachers is some fraction well below 0.5%

The idea that teachers should be evaluated and encouraged to perform at their best would seem really pretty basic but the CTU makes it sound like some evil plot. Hogwash. Even if the CPS leadership "had it out" for canning teachers there simply is not a large enough supply of qualified teachers to restaff more than a handful of positions every year.

The strike is partly because of the need of the dysfunctional CTU leadership having to impress their membership that the dues are worth paying and at some level it also helps Rahm's claim that he is "working for the betterment of the schools" when in fact both the CTU and Rahm / CPS leadership are all cut from the same "bigger government to foster greater dependency" mindset that infects the thinking of most folks in urban areas...

I will absolutely concur that part of the problem big-picture is that the CTU has been anti-proactive about cleaning their own house. Common sense would tell me that out of 26,000 teachers at least 1 or 2% get to a point they are too burned out to function. It's not called "the front lines" for nothing.

This is where seniority as a concept is a problem - but the alternate is as bad if not worse, age discrimination. A lot of it is how you look at it, IMO. Saying kids benefit from teachers with more experience sounds good. Saying they benefit from teachers with seniority doesn't.

And the CTU is no different than any other large municipal pool, though - cops, firefighters, etc. - they want to make sure that budget hawks aren't saving nickels and dimes by getting rid of higher paid teachers with experience/seniority and replacing them with cheaper ones.

I say nickels and dimes because IMO you get what you pay for. There is no, repeat, NO massive backlog of overqualified teachers looking for entry level teaching jobs in the poor neighborhoods. Anyone who tells you that is up to something.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by chet everett

...the potential for teachers to "put on a show" for the necessarily limited "observation session" is well known.

Let's see some research supporting that - I think the problem then lies with the administrators & the execution of the process, not the teachers.

You ever stood in front of 30+ teens? Believe me, putting on a show is part of the deal, even if you're teaching math or science.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by lenniel

In virtually any other profession, your performance is measured against some quantifiable measuring tool.

In a teachers profession, I would assume that the measuring stick is student performance and academic achievement. If the teachers are so against using that as the measuring stick, how do you evaluate whether a teacher is doing a good job 'teaching'?

The core problem is that it is unfair to hold someone accountable when they have no control over the situation.

After you skim the cream off the CPS with selective admission and other alternatives, what's left behind is going to be even more slanted towards the lower acheivers, no parental involvment, etc etc etc.

Realistically, if I'm a teacher I'm going to try to help the % of the class that is actually trying and the rest can take a nap at their desk for all I care. They can get their GED in prison later on.

Now if you give the teacher the kind of power someone like a drill sargent has complete with the threat of imprisonment then yeah, hold them accountable. But in reality, they can't make the kid even show up to class.

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

It is just not that simple, as has been discussed as nauseum in here. A few more:

Do you give a doctor low marks for not saving the life of a guy who comes to the ER after being shot in the head? Or impaled in a car accident?

Do you give a public defender low marks for not getting a client off who was caught red-handed at the scene of a crime?

Do you give the police low marks for not stopping the violence in Chicago when they have no control over the flow of weapons and drugs into the City?

Success in life on a daily grind basis rarely consists of taking multiple choice tests and scoring well.

This X 1,000.

[cubssoxfan]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

The core problem is that it is unfair to hold someone accountable when they have no control over the situation.

After you skim the cream off the CPS with selective admission and other alternatives, what's left behind is going to be even more slanted towards the lower acheivers, no parental involvment, etc etc etc.

Realistically, if I'm a teacher I'm going to try to help the % of the class that is actually trying and the rest can take a nap at their desk for all I care. They can get their GED in prison later on.

Now if you give the teacher the kind of power someone like a drill sargent has complete with the threat of imprisonment then yeah, hold them accountable. But in reality, they can't make the kid even show up to class.

And why can't they separate the kids out?!