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From your post, you seem to feel very, very responsible for the lack of wealth and opportunity on the south and west side, to the point where you've labeled our country a "racist montrosity." I totally disagree with that sentiment but putting that aside, I cannot for the life of me figure out why one who harbored such guilt wouldn't be trying to help, if not in just some small way.
Maybe as a military veteran, I feel differently about this than some others on here might. Fixing a problem requires those with a passion over the injustice to try to fix it, even if to do so would cause them discomfort and possible risk. To not do so is cowardly, IMO. Talk is cheap. Action is not.
No guilt. None what-so-ever. Period! How on earth can I have guilt due to the DNA that affects skin pigmentation. Do you realize if I actually had guilt, I would be making the most racist statement I could: that race through its genetic make up can cause anything to happen.
This was no indictment of me, nor was it of other white people. It is a cancer of American society. What is race? Just a construct. And some of the whitest and fairest skinned uber-caucasioin people on this planet, the Swedes, don't harbor judgements on people's skin color.
You think I am cowardly and that talk is cheap. My attitudes and believes have nothing to do with either. I have no agenda I am trying to carry out. And truthfully, the only battle I see here involves what goes on in the mind and heart....in other words, the most valuable thing we can do, be it expensive or cheap, is to talk to each other. Talk is precious. Dialogue is essential. Being able to see each other and understand each other is essential. So in the very post of yours that I am responding to, you are doing what i would consider a very "right" thing to do: you're talking about it.
I live on a dying planet. We've killed it. Kuddos to the greatest of our murderers, Big Oil. Yet I will shortly get in my car, drive, and add to the mess. I love my dog as much as I love any person. He is hardly a "lower species" than I am. In fact, I actually consider him a higher one. The biggest, most gi-normous holocaust in history is what we do when we raise and slaughter sentient life. I will have a turkey sandwich for lunch. I wish I could go vegan, but I can't. If I did, it would only be for me anyway because it would have 0 effect on killing animals.
The so called European race obviously started in Europe...but it was exported to America where race became important. And for one reason only: you couldn't have a slave if he was equal to you. You had to play a fiction. That fiction said he was another race, a much lower race than homo sapiens. Without that narrative, you could not live with yourself. And African slavery was different from all others: it came with ID tags. You could identify a "negro" and know he was a slave. The white race may have started in Europe, but they never had a concept of "whiteness". That is a product of America.
That sick narrative is what led to us endlessly sorting and classifying into "higher" and "lower" and it affected (affects) every element of our society. That flood of European immigrants after the Civil War? Sure they came for the exploding number of industrial jobs.....but they also were in a sense "brought here" in conditions probably not all that much better than a slave ship. They came to pad the numbers. Freed blacks meant you really had to keep an eye on demographics. So all those Europeans...many of a darker complexion like Italians, Jews, Greeks...were anointed with "whiteness" to keep black percentages down.
I am not a self-hating white guy. I am not a self-hating American. And being Jewish, i am most certainly not self-hating because I abhor the whole concept of zionism and see see Israel in highly negative terms. And if you want to know who my "heroes" are, I will tell you: the German youth of the late 40s, 1950s & 60s: they questioned everything. They asked everyone...parents, grandparents, all. They wanted to know why. And they did everything in their power to make Germany the type of nation they would be proud of. I don't know about what the answer is in your book, but in mine, Germany is much more of the type of nation I'd like to live in than is the US or Israel.
" to the point where you've labeled our country a "racist montrosity." What do you think if I were to ask a person in western Europe or Japan or Mexico if America is a "racist monstrosity". You don't think is. I do.
31 dead in the mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton. Thoughts & prayers to them all. It's an unpleasant thought to think about but not to worry: in three or four days, it will be totally out of the news cycle so hopefully we won't have to exert any thoughts or prayers for awhile.
If you or any of us love America, then you can prove it by looking into the mirror and seeing what we have become. As I noted above, the people of Germany did just that, god bless 'em, and I kind of like the way they look.
No guilt. None what-so-ever. Period! How on earth can I have guilt due to the DNA that affects skin pigmentation. Do you realize if I actually had guilt, I would be making the most racist statement I could: that race through its genetic make up can cause anything to happen.
This was no indictment of me, nor was it of other white people. It is a cancer of American society. What is race? Just a construct. And some of the whitest and fairest skinned uber-caucasioin people on this planet, the Swedes, don't harbor judgements on people's skin color.
You think I am cowardly and that talk is cheap. My attitudes and believes have nothing to do with either. I have no agenda I am trying to carry out. And truthfully, the only battle I see here involves what goes on in the mind and heart....in other words, the most valuable thing we can do, be it expensive or cheap, is to talk to each other. Talk is precious. Dialogue is essential. Being able to see each other and understand each other is essential. So in the very post of yours that I am responding to, you are doing what i would consider a very "right" thing to do: you're talking about it.
I live on a dying planet. We've killed it. Kuddos to the greatest of our murderers, Big Oil. Yet I will shortly get in my car, drive, and add to the mess. I love my dog as much as I love any person. He is hardly a "lower species" than I am. In fact, I actually consider him a higher one. The biggest, most gi-normous holocaust in history is what we do when we raise and slaughter sentient life. I will have a turkey sandwich for lunch. I wish I could go vegan, but I can't. If I did, it would only be for me anyway because it would have 0 effect on killing animals.
The so called European race obviously started in Europe...but it was exported to America where race became important. And for one reason only: you couldn't have a slave if he was equal to you. You had to play a fiction. That fiction said he was another race, a much lower race than homo sapiens. Without that narrative, you could not live with yourself. And African slavery was different from all others: it came with ID tags. You could identify a "negro" and know he was a slave. The white race may have started in Europe, but they never had a concept of "whiteness". That is a product of America.
That sick narrative is what led to us endlessly sorting and classifying into "higher" and "lower" and it affected (affects) every element of our society. That flood of European immigrants after the Civil War? Sure they came for the exploding number of industrial jobs.....but they also were in a sense "brought here" in conditions probably not all that much better than a slave ship. They came to pad the numbers. Freed blacks meant you really had to keep an eye on demographics. So all those Europeans...many of a darker complexion like Italians, Jews, Greeks...were anointed with "whiteness" to keep black percentages down.
I am not a self-hating white guy. I am not a self-hating American. And being Jewish, i am most certainly not self-hating because I abhor the whole concept of zionism and see see Israel in highly negative terms. And if you want to know who my "heroes" are, I will tell you: the German youth of the late 40s, 1950s & 60s: they questioned everything. They asked everyone...parents, grandparents, all. They wanted to know why. And they did everything in their power to make Germany the type of nation they would be proud of. I don't know about what the answer is in your book, but in mine, Germany is much more of the type of nation I'd like to live in than is the US or Israel.
" to the point where you've labeled our country a "racist montrosity." What do you think if I were to ask a person in western Europe or Japan or Mexico if America is a "racist monstrosity". You don't think is. I do.
31 dead in the mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton. Thoughts & prayers to them all. It's an unpleasant thought to think about but not to worry: in three or four days, it will be totally out of the news cycle so hopefully we won't have to exert any thoughts or prayers for awhile.
If you or any of us love America, then you can prove it by looking into the mirror and seeing what we have become. As I noted above, the people of Germany did just that, god bless 'em, and I kind of like the way they look.
Sadly you do not realize the white guilt you have. The white guilt is strong within you. I don't know if it's your fault. Universities have been teaching their students that America is this horrible racist place for many years with inexplicably little counter from conservatives. Yet it's also the place that many people around the world want to come to. Go figure.
I've traveled around Europe, and the world. America is much admired abroad. And if you think racism and classism is bad here, you should talk to people in other countries. Ask a Romanian how they feel about the gypsies who live outside the nice cities for example.
I only hope that you can find peace because you are harboring guilt over things you did not cause, have no control over, and are not willing to step in and try to change so you can learn and alleviate that guilt. I do seriously recommend more than ever that you pick up an apartment in North Lawndale. I really think you will see then what the real causes of these issues are. And it won't be what you now think. Just make sure to get a month to month lease.
edsg25 AND BRU67, I admire both of you for your narratives. As an outsider, I can see and appreciate BOTH of your insights. You're both wordly and intelligent; that is obvious. Your viewpoints are interesting to read. And so you are both RIGHT in the way you hold your positions. There is always more than one way to see the world, just as there is always more than one ay to make changes in the world. Keep up the great work! Sincerely- Master Jay in Milwaukee
edsg25 AND BRU67, I admire both of you for your narratives. As an outsider, I can see and appreciate BOTH of your insights. You're both wordly and intelligent; that is obvious. Your viewpoints are interesting to read. And so you are both RIGHT in the way you hold your positions. There is always more than one way to see the world, just as there is always more than one ay to make changes in the world. Keep up the great work! Sincerely- Master Jay in Milwaukee
You sound like a good man Master Jay. However, we need to stop putting up with this racism narrative, along with the mainstream media's new favorite toy - white supremacy. It's dividing the country and it's not productive, particularly to the people who is is supposed to be "helping." Drive through North Lawndale or Austin and see how much it's helping. The answer is zero.
You sound like a good man Master Jay. However, we need to stop putting up with this racism narrative, along with the mainstream media's new favorite toy - white supremacy. It's dividing the country and it's not productive, particularly to the people who is is supposed to be "helping." Drive through North Lawndale or Austin and see how much it's helping. The answer is zero.
Maybe I missed it BRU67, what’s the real causes of these issues?
Sadly you do not realize the white guilt you have. The white guilt is strong within you. I don't know if it's your fault. Universities have been teaching their students that America is this horrible racist place for many years with inexplicably little counter from conservatives. Yet it's also the place that many people around the world want to come to. Go figure.
I've traveled around Europe, and the world. America is much admired abroad. And if you think racism and classism is bad here, you should talk to people in other countries. Ask a Romanian how they feel about the gypsies who live outside the nice cities for example.
I only hope that you can find peace because you are harboring guilt over things you did not cause, have no control over, and are not willing to step in and try to change so you can learn and alleviate that guilt. I do seriously recommend more than ever that you pick up an apartment in North Lawndale. I really think you will see then what the real causes of these issues are. And it won't be what you now think. Just make sure to get a month to month lease.
You know, Bru, when you tell me "this is what I think" or "my belief is".....I'm going to believe you. I don't get to decide what is going on your mind. I can't speak for you. If you want to understand me, ask me. Don't assume you know what I am thinking.
I have no white guilt. Zero. Zip. Nada. When I told you the DNA that runs through my veins is random, I'm telling you the truth.
White, as I noted, is a construct; it's not real. No race is. And since I mentioned I was Jewish, you'd have to realize that for American Jews we didn't start out by being "white"....we were anointed by whiteness. it was bestowed upon us.
It can easily be done. Whiteness has been granted an ever expanding membership. For example, many hispanics rather easily cross the line from hispanic to undifferentiated white.
And white guilt? Why? Do you have any idea how many white Americans are like me, having no white identity and if there were two groups of people....the one on the left (obviously) made up of blacks, hispanics and Asians, another on the right (obviously) made up of whites who "want my country back", do you realize how many of those white Americans, heads bobbing back and forth and back and forth would proudly select to the left. If Cornell West saw Bernie Sanders and Clarence Thomas in front of him, which one is he going to call "brother"???
I taught US history on the grade school level my whole life. The presentation has generally been from a highly white perspective. And I'll apply the same metric to black America that I used about me: if you want to know what African Americans are feeling, ask them.
The US certainly was a nation where many people wanted to come. Symbolically the Statue of Liberty, the first sight of America, offered the best of welcomes. That was then.
Today her "keep your f'ing tired and f'ing poor, your huddled masses of scum....." seems more like it belongs when one is leaving New York harbor.
You know, I wouldn't want to live anywhere near Lawndale or Austin or in a Gyspy camp outside of a Romanian town. I doubt that any would be a good place to live. Of course, people need to take responsibility for themselves, but if a good percentage of the people in Lawndale are the kind I wouldn't want to be around (and I wouldn't), so much of what has made them that way has been the issues of race.
Every single one of us, you and me very much included, see the world through different filters and what all of us, you and me very much included, see is not reality a snapshot we take of it. I believe that. I believe you and I are different. That we don't see things the same way. And, as noted, you can't get inside my brain any more than I can get inside yours.
Maybe I missed it BRU67, what’s the real causes of these issues?
Looks like you have. I'd say they stem from lack of moral values, lack of respect for property and others, anti-intellectualism, victim mentality, and overall aggressive behavior that seems to be culturally ingrained. You can notice it in the little things if you drive through certain areas - like someone passing you on the right just to get a car length ahead. Or throwing their trash out the car window. Or swearing at their children in public. Or walking in the middle of the street in front of cars when the crosswalk is a few feet away. Or screaming into the phone at their boyfriend on the CTA so everyone can hear their profanity. And of course you can notice it in the big things, such as some jag bags shooting into a party at Roosevelt and California.
You know, Bru, when you tell me "this is what I think" or "my belief is".....I'm going to believe you. I don't get to decide what is going on your mind. I can't speak for you. If you want to understand me, ask me. Don't assume you know what I am thinking.
I have no white guilt. Zero. Zip. Nada. When I told you the DNA that runs through my veins is random, I'm telling you the truth.
White, as I noted, is a construct; it's not real. No race is. And since I mentioned I was Jewish, you'd have to realize that for American Jews we didn't start out by being "white"....we were anointed by whiteness. it was bestowed upon us.
It can easily be done. Whiteness has been granted an ever expanding membership. For example, many hispanics rather easily cross the line from hispanic to undifferentiated white.
And white guilt? Why? Do you have any idea how many white Americans are like me, having no white identity and if there were two groups of people....the one on the left (obviously) made up of blacks, hispanics and Asians, another on the right (obviously) made up of whites who "want my country back", do you realize how many of those white Americans, heads bobbing back and forth and back and forth would proudly select to the left. If Cornell West saw Bernie Sanders and Clarence Thomas in front of him, which one is he going to call "brother"???
I taught US history on the grade school level my whole life. The presentation has generally been from a highly white perspective. And I'll apply the same metric to black America that I used about me: if you want to know what African Americans are feeling, ask them.
The US certainly was a nation where many people wanted to come. Symbolically the Statue of Liberty, the first sight of America, offered the best of welcomes. That was then.
Today her "keep your f'ing tired and f'ing poor, your huddled masses of scum....." seems more like it belongs when one is leaving New York harbor.
You know, I wouldn't want to live anywhere near Lawndale or Austin or in a Gyspy camp outside of a Romanian town. I doubt that any would be a good place to live. Of course, people need to take responsibility for themselves, but if a good percentage of the people in Lawndale are the kind I wouldn't want to be around (and I wouldn't), so much of what has made them that way has been the issues of race.
Every single one of us, you and me very much included, see the world through different filters and what all of us, you and me very much included, see is not reality a snapshot we take of it. I believe that. I believe you and I are different. That we don't see things the same way. And, as noted, you can't get inside my brain any more than I can get inside yours.
Well, whatever. I'm pretty comfortable in diagnosing you with a severe case of white guilt. You should work on this. Seriously.
Well, whatever. I'm pretty comfortable in diagnosing you with a severe case of white guilt. You should work on this. Seriously.
Here is what is funny. My stance is totally free of white guilt, enoygh so that I don’t have to be the least bit defensive about being white. It never crossed my mind. It is you who are getting trenendously defensice over whyites. Are you a self hating white ir even an ashamed one ? I have no idea
But I do that a person like me who Doesn’t assume me what others think but asks them to clarify is a abenefitted greatly over the guy who puts words in orhers mouths
Diakouge over issues of race require no mia culpas. Nor any fibger piibting. What it takes is speaking and list ning and working towards
It us not me who would benefit by going toAustin or Lawndale. You might want to ask hin “what ways both large and small are you affected by believe ng black every day when tou step out of you house?” That wuestion would defintely be out of your condort zobe.but getting out of tour confort zone is a good the bg. Better stiikk because both Austin and lawndale are way out of your confort zone
Looks like you have. I'd say they stem from lack of moral values, lack of respect for property and others, anti-intellectualism, victim mentality, and overall aggressive behavior that seems to be culturally ingrained. You can notice it in the little things if you drive through certain areas - like someone passing you on the right just to get a car length ahead. Or throwing their trash out the car window. Or swearing at their children in public. Or walking in the middle of the street in front of cars when the crosswalk is a few feet away. Or screaming into the phone at their boyfriend on the CTA so everyone can hear their profanity. And of course you can notice it in the big things, such as some jag bags shooting into a party at Roosevelt and California.
Appreciate your honesty and opinion, as a person who lives in one of these blighted areas I agree with some of your assessments.
With that being said racism is still apart of the problem regardless if anyone here want to admit it or not.
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