Do you think the EL will ever be expanded or new lines added? (Chicago: loans, bankrupt)

[chet everett]

And it is even more efficient to get better buses /trams...

Post WWII growth is quite literally a disaster that has torn our society into shreds.

You are kidding right? I have lived in Chicago, and I saw FAR LESS community unity on ANYTHING than I have in any of the the suburbs I've lived in.

I mean that. I remember when my area went to permit parking -- you'd thunk the business owners would literally hire assassins to shut up those that wanted it. Suburbs are not like that at all. People all pretty much live in 'em for the same reason. Quiet at night, good schools, low crime. Give 'em that and they get along. It is amazing. You cram people in together, let petty crimes go unpunished and just run down the civility and people seek a way out...

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Is this a joke? Post WWII growth is quite literally a disaster that has torn our society into shreds.

That's what did it?

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by chet everett

I really do not have anything against railways, but the cost per mile is off the charts, and when you factor in the sky high operational and maintenance costs it is clear why buses and trams are preferred by any transit system.

This is simply not true. Buses are only inexpensive because they operate on a well-maintained system of roads and highways which are paid for by another agency. If you could buy rail cars without having to maintain the tracks (or conversely, if the CTA were forced to maintain all streets), we would quickly see that rail travel is MUCH more cost effective on an inter-agency level.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by icebergsyndrome

not to sound smart-alecky but in that pic the roads and sidewalks are clear.

I'm pretty sure that's a frozen canal.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

That's what did it?

I do tend to believe that the push towards privildged isolated suburban enclaves without any real public realm is partially responsible for the social upheaval of the mid 20th Century. Kids who are lazy, self-absorbed and bored can do some pretty strange things, from social movements to cults to school shootings. And the concept of "community", which was a strong social regulator, has almost completely deteriorated. But that's another topic...

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by chet everett

And it is even more efficient to get better buses /trams...



You are kidding right? I have lived in Chicago, and I saw FAR LESS community unity on ANYTHING than I have in any of the the suburbs I've lived in.

I mean that. I remember when my area went to permit parking -- you'd thunk the business owners would literally hire assassins to shut up those that wanted it. Suburbs are not like that at all. People all pretty much live in 'em for the same reason. Quiet at night, good schools, low crime. Give 'em that and they get along. It is amazing. You cram people in together, let petty crimes go unpunished and just run down the civility and people seek a way out...

Well of course, there is a big difference between "cramming" people together in crowded tenement conditions and the typical home in Lincoln Park. And of course, some suburbs function quite well as communities. But the suburban developments of today encourage isolation more than anything else, and there are real social problems that stem from this.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

I do tend to believe that the push towards privildged isolated suburban enclaves without any real public realm......... But that's another topic...

And a good one, your thinking on this has merit. Indeed the selfish navel-gazing of the Baby Boomers may have much to do with their generally suburban upbringing but it may also have to do with some rot at the moral center of their parents, the so called "greatest generation". Whenever my Dad goes on about what dipsticks the Boomers are (and I agree to a large extent) I retort "Hey, you raised us."

[chet everett]

I get around to HUGE numbers of suburbs and most are not isolated at all. There are a handful of 'gated communities' but those are tiny tiny percentage of all in Chicago region. Most suburbs are designed simply to limit cut through traffic and make it safe for kids to play.

You need to get out and see more, I read journals / books / articles about development too, but honestly the Califonian/Nevada/Arizona disease is not a big factor around Chicago's burbs at all...

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by chet everett

I get around to HUGE numbers of suburbs and most are not isolated at all. There are a handful of 'gated communities' but those are tiny tiny percentage of all in Chicago region. Most suburbs are designed simply to limit cut through traffic and make it safe for kids to play.

You need to get out and see more, I read journals / books / articles about development too, but honestly the Califonian/Nevada/Arizona disease is not a big factor around Chicago's burbs at all...

Well I did at least partially grow up in one suburb, and have spent quite a bit of time in them. It's sort of the de facto existence these days for a middle class white guy like myself, so it's pretty ridiculous to say I'm not familiar with the lifestyle.

At least a few of Chicago's burbs are quite nicely planned around transit stops. And lots of suburbs have at least a few walkable blocks that were built with traditional town planning principles around local railway stations. But I'm talking about car-oriented sprawl in my comments above. And the isolation I speak of is isolation within one's own house, not isolation from one community to another (which is anothe issue entirely).

Today's suburban houses are islands. Instead of being a singular part of a cohesive neighborhood whole, these houses are individual objects that have no relationship to one another within a sea of green lawns. People get up, walk to the garage, drive to work, and drive home at night--all without any real public intereaction, save the strip mall or Wal-Mart parking lot. The public realm and community are dead in these types of suburban communities. Sidewalks are now a rarity--and are even frowned up in some areas. The garage is the prominent feature on the front of most houses, and functions as the real front door (which has been reduced to a cartoon-like presence).

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Today's suburban houses are islands. Instead of being a singular part of a cohesive neighborhood whole, these houses are individual objects that have no relationship to one another within a sea of green lawns. People get up, walk to the garage, drive to work, and drive home at night--all without any real public intereaction, save the strip mall or Wal-Mart parking lot. The public realm and community are dead in these types of suburban communities. Sidewalks are now a rarity--and are even frowned up in some areas. The garage is the prominent feature on the front of most houses, and functions as the real front door (which has been reduced to a cartoon-like presence).

Christ Lookout, that's the exact situation my wife and I are in now. Which is one reason why after three years of this we're coming back to Chicago.