Do you think the EL will ever be expanded or new lines added? (Chicago: how much, house)

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by supernerdgirl

i think that's all he/she's known for.

This one has to be his or her's number #1 so far.

[via chicago]

Originally Posted by hsw

Mass transit tends to be a drain on economy of any region

Many low-skill, low-wage workers would be better served relocating to lower-cost, low-tax regions like Dall/Hou suburbs/exurbs anyway

Higher income workers can easily drive from Winnetka, GoldCoast, LincPk, etc to Loop far more safely, comfortably, productively than via any silly mass transit/cabs

And if one argues that, in a virtual, globalized world, it's silly to have high-income workers waste time commuting from NorthShore to Loop....offices can easily relocate to NorthShore if sufficiently hassled/taxed....much of same phenom as hedge funds leaving/ignoring Manhattan for lower-tax, more-convenient Greenwich...Darwinian economics...

You sir, are an idiot.

[chet everett]

While I won't comment on the "drain" aspect of mass transit.
I do think that there are a WORLD of differences between the the greater Loop of today AND the world in which the CTA last gave some thought to why workers / shoppers / entertainment seekers are coming from / going to. I think that the "gaper's block" map is also fairly out of touch -- frankly there are just far too few potential employment / cultural 'draws' near any of the propsed new lines to draw enough ridership to justify the enormous cost of rapid transit. Chicago's residential density would have to increase about 4-5 fold and that would be a NIGHTMARE...

The "spokes" of our current system work to get CTA & Metra riders from low density diserable neighborhoods and suburban areas into the core employment district, as well as providing a nice ridership to/from the airports. As such, some of the lines are barely sustainable, expansion is simply not feasible. To help current ridership level it would make more sense to design more "bypass" areas with additional sidings and computerized switching -- no need to triple track the whole stretch, with smart switches trains could be shunted off a SINGLE through-line unto station-bound sidings vs true "end of line" expresses.
Further, if you envision the horrors that would come from turning areas of single family homes and three flats into midrise and larger developments that would be needed to give the "dreamland" new lines sufficient ridership base, you quickly get to something that looks more the choking environmental wasteland of something from the third world and a lot less like the City in a Garden...


BTW, there are more than a few hedgies in places like NW Cook and affluent Lake Co already. The impetus is mostly that they have a simpler life style being a few minutes from home, as opposed to the situation in NY vs CT taxes. Staff needs for hedge funds are ridiculously low. Heck the "big" downtown banks all pretty much have MORE office space than they really need these days. Physical transactions have been in decline for decades. With all the space that banks have acquired through mergers if they couldn't rely on attorneys and such to rent out space office rents would be fall off a cliff. As it is at least one former bank space is slated for conversion to HOTEL space...

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

This one has to be his or her's number #1 so far.

No, this one is worse.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/6820529-post7.html

[Lookout Kid]

I'm tired of the idiots saying public transportation should pay for itself. Does the tollway system pay for itself? Of course not! And neither does our entire system of roads and highways! The massive government subsidy of the automobile comes in many forms, such as highway expenditures, oil company tax breaks, wars to protect foreign oil supplies, and longer utility lines (to go great distances in sprawl zones). The economic externalities, which are spread to all of society, are often unaccounted for (like pollution, sprawl, etc.). And of course, setting up new development so that EVERY adult must own a car to function properly can be a huge drain on families personal finances. The modern suburban family pretty much has a fleet of automobiles once kids reach driving age. The benefits of public transportation are largely overlooked in post WWII America, but this could change quickly if cheap oil becomes a thing of the past.

And to HSW, I'd like to point out that the most desirable urban areas of the world usually revolve around public transportation, from New York to London to Paris to Tokyo. If you look at the list of the most expensive cities in the world, most have great public transportation (with the exception of sunny vacation spots like Honolulu). And in much of the world, the well-to-do actually use public tranportation unless they are EXTREMELY rich and hire cars or have personal drivers.

[via chicago]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Chicago's residential density would have to increase about 4-5 fold and that would be a NIGHTMARE...

I dont see how you arrive at this figure...or how it would be a nightmare. Chicago at one point had almost 4 million people. Today it is what..2.8? I dont see how you can argue the city can't support a greater number of people in the modern era when it supported far more in the past. Now if all those people are driving single occupancy vehicles, then of course it would be unliveable. Thats why efficient and comprehensive public tranist is more crucial than ever.

The "spokes" of our current system work to get CTA & Metra riders from low density diserable neighborhoods and suburban areas into the core employment district, as well as providing a nice ridership to/from the airports.

In my opinion, this is one of the biggest flaws on the Chicago transit situation. As someone else stated on another board, Metra is nothing more than a modern day mine train, hauling a bunch of well heeled suburbanites into a stinking pit of commerce and vice for a few hours before dragging their butts back to the magic world of big lawns. Its fine for what it is, but does nothing to address the evolving transportation needs of our region as a whole.

As such, some of the lines are barely sustainable, expansion is simply not feasible. To help current ridership level it would make more sense to design more "bypass" areas with additional sidings and computerized switching -- no need to triple track the whole stretch, with smart switches trains could be shunted off a SINGLE through-line unto station-bound sidings vs true "end of line" expresses.

Many lines used to have "A/B skip stop" service..I'm a believer they should bring it back.

Further, if you envision the horrors that would come from turning areas of single family homes and three flats into midrise and larger developments that would be needed to give the "dreamland" new lines sufficient ridership base, you quickly get to something that looks more the choking environmental wasteland of something from the third world and a lot less like the City in a Garden...

High density development along transit corridors should be encouraged at all costs. You want to talk about a "choking environmental wasteland"? Thats what we have right now on the expressways 18 hours out of the day. High density, when properly planned, means you dont HAVE to venture far out of your way for daily needs...thats the point and the only way a major city can be sustainable. I dont know what you mean by "3rd world", but it sounds more like a crituque of the architecture than the principle.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by chet everett

While I won't comment on the "drain" aspect of mass transit.
I do think that there are a WORLD of differences between the the greater Loop of today AND the world in which the CTA last gave some thought to why workers / shoppers / entertainment seekers are coming from / going to. I think that the "gaper's block" map is also fairly out of touch -- frankly there are just far too few potential employment / cultural 'draws' near any of the propsed new lines to draw enough ridership to justify the enormous cost of rapid transit. Chicago's residential density would have to increase about 4-5 fold and that would be a NIGHTMARE...

The "spokes" of our current system work to get CTA & Metra riders from low density diserable neighborhoods and suburban areas into the core employment district, as well as providing a nice ridership to/from the airports. As such, some of the lines are barely sustainable, expansion is simply not feasible. To help current ridership level it would make more sense to design more "bypass" areas with additional sidings and computerized switching -- no need to triple track the whole stretch, with smart switches trains could be shunted off a SINGLE through-line unto station-bound sidings vs true "end of line" expresses.
Further, if you envision the horrors that would come from turning areas of single family homes and three flats into midrise and larger developments that would be needed to give the "dreamland" new lines sufficient ridership base, you quickly get to something that looks more the choking environmental wasteland of something from the third world and a lot less like the City in a Garden...


BTW, there are more than a few hedgies in places like NW Cook and affluent Lake Co already. The impetus is mostly that they have a simpler life style being a few minutes from home, as opposed to the situation in NY vs CT taxes. Staff needs for hedge funds are ridiculously low. Heck the "big" downtown banks all pretty much have MORE office space than they really need these days. Physical transactions have been in decline for decades. With all the space that banks have acquired through mergers if they couldn't rely on attorneys and such to rent out space office rents would be fall off a cliff. As it is at least one former bank space is slated for conversion to HOTEL space...

Public transit is not a profit based system.

[long101]

Originally Posted by hsw

Mass transit tends to be a drain on economy of any region

Many low-skill, low-wage workers would be better served relocating to lower-cost, low-tax regions like Dall/Hou suburbs/exurbs anyway

Higher income workers can easily drive from Winnetka, GoldCoast, LincPk, etc to Loop far more safely, comfortably, productively than via any silly mass transit/cabs

And if one argues that, in a virtual, globalized world, it's silly to have high-income workers waste time commuting from NorthShore to Loop....offices can easily relocate to NorthShore if sufficiently hassled/taxed....much of same phenom as hedge funds leaving/ignoring Manhattan for lower-tax, more-convenient Greenwich...Darwinian economics...

ummm I think your missing the point of mass transit. Im a middle income individual and it would be a 10-15 minute drive to my work in the loop without traffic. However I take the El and my entire trip is a bit over 30 min. Im not going to pay 20 bucks a day to park in a garage and Im not going to deal with all of the traffic every day. If there wasnt public transit in the city this place would be a zoo, there would be way to many cars in the streets.

[chicagocubs]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

No transportation system in the history of civilization has ever been profitable.

WRONG! Charlotte just opened a light-rail system for the southern half of the city/suburbs and the profits are so great that they have ramped up talks of expanding the system to the north side of town (where I live, naturally). The fed is so impressed that they are offering to chuck in a larger amt. Hopefully, they can get their acts in gear and get this done before I am dead & buried....

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by chicagocubs

WRONG! Charlotte just opened a light-rail system for the southern half of the city/suburbs and the profits are so great that they have ramped up talks of expanding the system to the north side of town (where I live, naturally). The fed is so impressed that they are offering to chuck in a larger amt. Hopefully, they can get their acts in gear and get this done before I am dead & buried....

I'm sure the half a cent sales tax subsidy for mass transit in Mecklenburg county doesn't hurt either!