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Old 06-14-2010, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
That is easy, whenever the age/ages in which they are punished ends.
How do you know that?
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
Of course they are different. One is an attempt to try to slip in a reference to a trinity that does not exist in the original wording. The fact that there were spurious motives to try to keep that text in there to try to support the trinity concept, makes one leery as to what should be believed in the rest of the bible.
The trinity concept can be found elsewhere. That's not the focus in 1 John 5.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
How do you know that?
Because God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). Because every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Christ is lord to the Glory of the father(Phl 2:11). Because all the nations shall worship him and sing his name, and all the kindred of the nations will turn to him and worship him(Psa 22:27,Psa 66:4).


The Scriptures teach that if any are turned to God and confess Christ is lord, they will be saved(Rom 10:9,Psa 80:3,). And as it is written God is making all things to come together in one in Christ at the end of time(Eph 1:10).

And many other scriptures which teach the eventual restitution of all things as well(Act 3:21). For Christ is making all things new(Rev 21:5) ...



Amen ...
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:30 PM
 
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The old and new testaments have about six thousand contradictions in them so, in short, the bible is a great way to live your life but should not be taken literally. You can't scream about proofs in one part of the bible when the other is talking about God commanding people to run through pregnant women with their sword and stone your neighbor for working on the sabath. When you take the bible literally you miss the entire point of God and the message of Jesus, very similar to other religions and prophets. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Most christians, and people in general, live their life by some code or religion absent of treating others with respect, kindness, and love. Judging one another, threatening of eternal torment, and claiming you have the only way to salvation, are all very fatalistic ways of thought. After all, you only believe what you believe as a pure chance of circumstance. Had you been born somewhere else you would be something entirely different. Do something good for someone else and drop the "holier than thou" routine.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
We wouldn't know about God today if there was not a reference available. He tells us who He is in the Bible so that everyone who believes in Him has the same frame of reference. Otherwise, there would only be people verbally stating what the Spirit communicated. That would be mass confusion.

I understand that. I am GLAD we have scripture to reference. Most of the Bible is intact and I believe the message IN it is the GOOD NEWS! I am so glad that when we die we are not just dead. We will all live again. Couldn't get better than that.

There IS a purpose, and that purpose is to LOVE the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and to LOVE our neighbor as ourselves so we will be just like Him.

WITHOUT LOVE we are NOTHING.

This WHOLE universe is going to be remade, and things in HEAVEN and EARTH will one day be set free. No more tears. No more pain. No more confusion. No more chaos...........

Last edited by herefornow; 06-14-2010 at 10:57 PM..
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,196 posts, read 14,086,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Because God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). Because every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Christ is lord to the Glory of the father(Phl 2:11). Because all the nations shall worship him and sing his name, and all the kindred of the nations will turn to him and worship him(Psa 22:27,Psa 66:4).


The Scriptures teach that if any are turned to God and confess Christ is lord, they will be saved(Rom 10:9,Psa 80:3,). And as it is written God is making all things to come together in one in Christ at the end of time(Eph 1:10).

And many other scriptures which teach the eventual restitution of all things as well(Act 3:21). For Christ is making all things new(Rev 21:5) ...



Amen ...
There is only your assumption concerning the ending of punishment. Nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible. Some are thrown in the lake of fire in Rev. 20. There is no mention of them getting released.



Question for you in parallel with 1 Tim. 2:4 since you mentioned it - Did God desire that Israel keep His commandments upon entering the promised land? Y or N?
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:43 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
There is only your assumption concerning the ending of punishment. Nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible. Some are thrown in the lake of fire in Rev. 20. There is no mention of them getting released.



Question for you in parallel with 1 Tim. 2:4 since you mentioned it - Did God desire that Israel keep His commandments upon entering the promised land? Y or N?
yes God desires all people to keep his commandments. And eventually he will achieve that very thing when all is said and done. Though God allows for evil to exist and even hardens hearts and blinds the eyes of his very own elect in order that he might have mercy on all(Romans 11).

Gods sent his word into the world to accomplish all that he desires, and his word will not return to him void(Isa 55:11), yet you teach that Gods word will not accomplish what he desires, and will in fact return to him void.

I assume nothing. The bible plainly states God will have all to be saved, and his word will accomplish all that he desires. You simply do not believe it. That will not stop it from coming to pass.

The scriptures clearly teach that the fire of Gods judgment is for the purpose of purification of them that are so judged. You will not believe it. The bible clearly teaches that God has devised the means that those whom he has banished should not remain expelled from him(2Sa 14:14).

The scriptures clearly and plainly teach that God will not cast of without end(Lam 3:31). The scriptures clearly teach that the God will not always be wroth, but that his mercies will endure(Psalm 136,Isa 57:16). Yet you teacht hat God will be angry for ever, and that his mercy ends as soon as a person dies and or at the time of judgment.

Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't stop it from being true ... For God is the savior of all people, especially(not only) of those that are believing.



Peace ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 06-15-2010 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I see no contradiction in a modern language translation.
but you saw a contradiction in the old KJV? yes or no?

Ephesians 3:21 (New King James Version)
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

the NKJV is also mistranslated

αυτω η δοξα εν τη εκκλησια εν χριστω ιησου εις πασας τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

a correct translation would be

to Him be the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen. (Green's literal)

"tou aionos" means "of the age" not forever, "ton aionon" is plural and means "of the ages", it does not mean "forever and ever"

Wycliffe got it right also

to hym be glorie in the chirche, and in Crist Jhesu, in to alle the generaciouns of the world of worldis. Amen.

where the modern translations fail

the mistranslated phrase bears also relevance to the subject of universalism, but does it change any other biblical doctrine?, universalists do not claim that all the bible is untrustworthy but that several keywords have been mistranslated, in many instances biased and willingly as I will document later

I prove in my next post further that everlasting/eternal and forever do not mean endless in English bibles

Last edited by svenM; 06-15-2010 at 06:25 AM..
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Old 06-15-2010, 06:32 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,745,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but you saw a contradiction in the old KJV? yes or no?

Ephesians 3:21 (New King James Version)
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

the NKJV is also mistranslated

αυτω η δοξα εν τη εκκλησια εν χριστω ιησου εις πασας τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

a correct translation would be

to Him be the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen. (Green's literal)

"tou aionos" means "of the age" not forever, "ton aionon" is plural and means "of the ages", it does not mean "forever and ever"

Wycliffe got it right also

to hym be glorie in the chirche, and in Crist Jhesu, in to alle the generaciouns of the world of worldis. Amen.

where the modern translations fail

the mistranslated phrase bears also relevance to the subject of universalism, but does it change any other biblical doctrine?, universalists do not claim that all the bible is untrustworthy but that several keywords have been mistranslated, in many instances biased and willingly as I will document later

I prove in my next post further that everlasting/eternal and forever do not mean endless in English bibles
Thank you Sven, very good post.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
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Default concerning "hell"

concerning hell there are also great diverences among non-universalist translations

the word translated "hell" in the Old Testament is "sheol", its literal meaning is controversial, in the Septuagint it has been translated with hades in (almost) all instances

the KJV translates this very word with both hell and grave in each 31 instances (and 3 times with pit) see here

so either grave and hell are equivalents or there is something wrong and the KJV translators had an agenda, I will show several examples

Job 14:13, KJV

O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave [sheol], that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

same verse in Green's literal:

Who will grant that You would hide me in Sheol; You would conceal me until Your anger turns back; that You would set a limit for me and remember me?

Psalm 9:17, KJV

The wicked shall be turned into hell [sheol], and all the nations that forget God.

same verse in the NIV

The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

Green has

The wicked shall be turned to Sheol, all the nations forgetting God.

the NIV is heavily critizied for this rendering by some fundamentalists, yet the NIV is no universalist translation

as it seems the KJV did always use "hell" when sheol is used with reference to the unrigtheous and "grave" when used with reference to the righteous, this is highly manipulative and documented here in detail: The Exact Nature of Sheol, Hades and Hell.

a further point that proves the KJV's bias is found in the New Testament, Hades, the Greek equivalent of Sheol is translated 10x times with hell by the KJV, only in once instance with "grave", see here

1 Corinthians 15:55

O death [thanatos], where is thy sting? O grave [Hades], where is thy victory?

obviously the KJV translators didn't want a victory over hell, or which reason is there not to translate Hades with hell if it had been done so in any other instance?

notice! older manuscripts as the Textus Receptus, have 2 times death (thanatos) here instead of Hades,

Where O death [thanatos] is thy sting? where O death [thanatos] thy victory? (Darby)

this repetition of death might have a deeper significance if it is the genuine reading, as it might refer to the second death, as Hades would have already been destroyed in the lake of fire.

Tyndale (1526) translates

Deeth where is thy stynge? Hell where is thy victory?

you see there is very much bias in the KJV concerning the term "hell" and also non-universalist translations vary significantly in this matter
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