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Old 07-13-2010, 12:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I disagree with this. Prove the early church believed this, using orginal languages and not a supposed copy from a website. I would like to read copies of the originals, and not take the word of man, for we know all men lie.

It is NOT what Jesus taught, so I would HIGHLY doubt the early church believed this, unless they were Paulites who misunderstood the letters he wrote, like Peter says. Show me early coverted Jews who believed this.
I don't think that you would accept any evidence at all even though you ask for it. So i don't really understand the point in asking for it to begin with, but i will post the evidences I have already posted before ... You say that you want evidences in our own words but yet how can anything that any of us who believe in UR say of our own words convince you when scholars and historians do not convince you? You also say that Christ did not teach UR, but that is entirely your own opinion(and that of other fundamentalist and orthodox Christians) based entirely on what we understand to be mistranslations to begin with ...

Regardless here is evidence ...

Quote:
The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96; Retrieved April 29, 2007. “In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
* Seymour, Charles. A Theodicy of Hell. p. 25. Springer (2000).
* Ludlow, Morwenna. Universal Salvation: eschatology in the thought of Gregory of Nyssa and Karl Rahner. Pp. 1-2. Oxford University Press (2000)



St. Basil the Great, writing in the fourth century wrote, “The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished.” (De Asceticis) St. Jerome wrote in the same century, “I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.” St. Augustine, while himself teaching eternal torment wrote, “There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.” (Enchira, ad Laurent)
We see from the words of the men above, who themselves believed in eternal torment, that in fact most people did not believe in ET, but did in fact believe in UR(apocatastasis).

AS well we see that four of the six theological seminaries in the first five hundred years taught UR while only one taught annihilation and only one taught ET. These are the fact that you refuse ... I do not necessarily post these evidences for you, as you have never accepted them even though you cannot produce one single piece of evidence that shows most people believed in ET or in annihilation in those first centuries of the early church.

You may simply nay say the evidences above, but that does not change the facts which the above evidences do certainly represent.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-13-2010 at 01:13 AM..
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
That's a good explanation herefornow, thanks!

But if those were the last days, what are these? Maybe that is a rhetorical question...
This is the way I look at it. The last days started 2000 years ago, which isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. But I would also say that things have been getting progressively worse from that point, not better. So even in the last, say, 100 or even 200 years we have been WAXING not WANING worse.

What should that tell you?

I don't know of a single verse in the Bible that predicts all will get better, spiritually speaking, of course, as time progresses.

What little light the world had 2000 years ago was snuffed out. It flickered on and then it flickered off. IF, big if, those first folks who were supposed to carry out the GOOD NEWS to the planet had done the right thing, things might have turned out differently.

But, of course............That's not how things work down here. No surprise.

Good news, though. The last shall be first, and I do see kindness here, still. Very good.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-13-2010 at 01:36 AM..
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:39 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
But I would also say that things have been getting progressively worse from that point, not better. So even in the last, say, 100 or even 200 years we have been WAXING not WANING worse.
Another "end time" religious terror scam is to insist mankind has become more and more evil - especially in the past couple of hundred years.

These are mostly based on verses from 2 TIM. 3: “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them”

"But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived".

The reference to "a form of godliness" and "evil men and impostors" obviously is inline with the OP. Who took Christianity down a dark path to the dark ages? And claimed it was "godliness"? And were "impostors"?

Clearly it was not atheists or free thinkers (or hippies). This is talking about the Christian religion itself!!! Or - rather, what it turned into.

But to many now these verses are just more proof that we are in the "last days" - yet those same people many times label those who advance ideas about universal love and forgiveness and ultimate redemption as "evil impostors" while they themselves adhere to the dark age doctrines of eternal non-forgiveness and an end of mercy.

Remember - Jesus had no problems with the rank and file sinners. It was ALWAYS with the religious system and it's leaders.


As far as being positive that's things are getting worse and worse -
here's a great article which shows that the public perception of "how things are" are sometimes skewed:
Imaginary fiends - The Boston Globe

Now - to go all the way into this would take it's own thread but consider this: just 200 years ago I could have gone down the road and purchased a few slaves to do my work, beat or kill them at will - all legally. Go back further and legal punishments for certain crimes (in 'civilized' countries) included being skinned alive or roasted alive.

Is their evil out there today? - Duh! BUT this fundamentalist myth that things are worse now than ever is more than ridiculous.

Again - this would be a VERY complex discussion and the pessimists will always see the glass as half empty. Until I convert them!!!

What I see is that the happy message of Jesus to the masses DID get twisted (per the OP) and the world went way down through the dark ages. With the renaissance things slowly began to turn around. By the 1800's the idea of universal human rights at least existed and breakthroughs in science, communications, travel, medicine, philosophy and theology etc brought rapid change.

In fact - by the late 1800's you could openly be a Christian universalist and not get burned at the stake! Awesome.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:28 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I Believe Luther could only walk in the light he had , i believe through the ages since Luther's day God has been restoring back the light that almost dimmed out in the dark ages .
I also believe the light of Universal Reconcilation is glowing now and many are being drawn to it .
I think we need to be careful though in thinking the light of the truth regarding UR is all that is left of the light of the gospel to be restored , this is how denominations are formed by building around present truth restored back to the church , just like what happened to Luther's message , Wesley's message and the Pentecostal message.

I'm grateful to God that He opened my heart to receive the truth about UR , i pray that He will continue to grant me an open heart to the light of His glorious gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ.
Very nice post.
I believe that we all must hear the voice of the Master in us. Otherwise, what one person has as a revelation will become old manna.

Jesus said that man shall live not by bread alone (the scriptures) but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The religious attack those who are hearing the voice of God, saying that there is no more voice of God to hear, that He is "done speaking." They say this in all honesty, because they cannot hear His voice speaking to them.
But He is speaking, and we must learn to hear His voice DAILY, or we will fall in the wilderness. Everyday His mercies and teachings are new!

Praise God!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:50 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Sorry I couldn't put your post in here, firstborn, but I'm typing on my phone.

I used to have many a conversation with my father over these things, and I truly understand the good AND bad going on here. I'm not a big end-timer and I don't care much for fear tactics and all, so I'm the last person who wants to say something is wrong. Blue skies and sunny days is all I'm really interested in.

But, for some odd reason this ol' brain of mine keeps tumbling on and I've never gotten over the nagging feeling that something is wrong. Off kilter. Red flags and all that good stuff.

I've been around here on the boards since March, and you know that I'm perfectly happy not being tied to organized religion, and I'm thrilled that I don't get burnt at the stake for it. And I am very pleased that we no longer have slavery. Well, at least not the easily discernible kind. But, I believe wholeheartedly what is has happening here on this planet is basically, how shall I put this, a sham. Nobody is ready to say the emperor has no clothes just yet.

Think of it like this; you do something really stupid, you start rumors and chaos throughout the world, under cover, of course, and then you come
waltzing in, all smiles, with arms outstretched speaking of love and happiness, telling the whole world how to fix the problems that you started. The sham I'm speaking of here has to do with the promise of paradise on earth while in mortal, corrupt minds and bodies. We tend to believe our authority figures most of the time. We trust them. But the WHOLE WORLD is desperate and blinded, even the people we trust, and it will have to force it's way into peace, which won't be a good thing, because it does not know what it needs, it sure as heck doesn't want to be told it needs anything, and it will steamroll those who get in the path of it's vision. All in the name of peace, of course.

Anyway, I believe the anger and sorrow is increasing on the individual level
and will continue to do so around the world. It will come out sooner or later,
maybe even in unusual ways. How many psych pills is the world on now?

What this world needs is true unconditional love coming out of the human breast, which can only be given to it by it's parent (God). But there seems to
be a leak of some kind on this planet. A love leak. The kind of love that only the Creator can give. It's his creation, and he must give us the supernatural
kind of love that can overpower every kind of darkness. Human effort alone will not work. I'm talking the kind of love that Jesus had when he loved the enemies that had him killed.

What happened, though, is that the men left in charge only pervertEd that love, took advantage of humanity, and then came back in another door
claiming to have the answers.

But maybe it's not even that sinister. Maybe it's just that the people at the top feel like they are babysitting. The babysitter may have all kinds of motivations for taking care of the children, but she/he could never love those kids like the parent could.

The only way people can unconditionally love the weakest, ugliest, and
stupidest among us is to have the love of a parent. I don't believe even the kindest people at the United Nations or anywhere else for that matter have the time, energy, or wisdom to cure what ails humanity.

You cannot force people to be human, you cannot pump a kind soul into individuals, and you cannot legislate love.

I don't really want to get into why I believe that things on this planet are off
kilter, more so now than in the past, because it's probably more political and not quite the topic of my thread, but, again, I've had a million conversations with my dad over just this subject and haven't really come to any positive
conclusion, although I'm always on the lookout for somebody to prove me wrong . It would be nice.

Checking murder rates (not just individual murder rates but those in wars), suicide rates, abortions, people being housed in mental facilities, prisons, and jails, etc. against historical data is an especially good idea if one wanted to get a good look at the supposed order coming out of chaos.

In conclusion, I'm not necessarily saying that people themselves are any worse than they were hundreds of years ago, but society has made it easier for the animal in us to come out in staggering numbers. I really don't think the postmodern age is going to be a lot of fun for anybody either. The enlightenment hit us, filled everybody with pep, and then let us down in a big way, in my opinion.

What now?

I believe that the Good News is still the Good News, not mythical emptiness, and the truth was out there, and still is. I have a great amount of hope that the light will prevail in the end, only I'm wondering at what point the people will finally accept it. What will we have to give up? Us?

If we don't know we need saving......

Last edited by herefornow; 07-13-2010 at 05:08 AM..
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:01 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Still a Universalist.

The point of my last post is that the early church had it right, but the light got snuffed out, and I don't think the light coming through these days is the right one. It's seems to be a bit mixed up with something else.

But I will continue to eagerly seek early Christianity's ways, and I would like this thread to focus on the joy and peace (the truly Good News) that Rome, and the world today, so desperately needed.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Herefornow,
And it's IN YOU already!! HE is THERE! Just let HIM have dominion; the love will come out, and people around you will be healed and drawn. This has been my experience, and I know yours, too.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,492,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Herefornow,
And it's IN YOU already!! HE is THERE! Just let HIM have dominion; the love will come out, and people around you will be healed and drawn. This has been my experience, and I know yours, too.

Blessings,
brian



My heart just kinda froze up back there somewhere. Too good to be true comes to mind. But I'm listening.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post



My heart just kinda froze up back there somewhere. Too good to be true comes to mind. But I'm listening.


Blessings!!!
brian
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

Anyway, I believe the anger and sorrow is increasing on the individual level
and will continue to do so around the world. It will come out sooner or later, maybe even in unusual ways. How many psych pills is the world on now?
YIKES!!! I don't allow that around here. Individuals around me get happier and happier. I have a power in me that creates universes (and - of course, so do you).

I know enough of you to know you wouldn't purposely spread unwarranted fear. What's obvious is that people project their personal experience onto their world view.

I also understand that those of us who have a pessimistic predisposition cannot just turn it off. Maybe I'm deluded in the opposite way I think pessimists are. Some have faith in the power of ignorance - some have faith in the power of love. Maybe both of us are here to experience polar opposites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

I believe that the Good News is still the Good News, not mythical emptiness, and the truth was out there, and still is. I have a great amount of hope that the light will prevail in the end, only I'm wondering at what point the people will finally accept it. What will we have to give up? Us?

If we don't know we need saving......
Most people know they are missing something. That's not a problem AISI. The problem is people not realizing what is available. All that the Father has is available NOW. I guess with many that's not a reality? It's still a reality whether it's known or not but (of course) is not a present benefit if remaining undisclosed.

By the way - the murder rate is down in the US. Crime is at it's lowest since the 60's. There are more free democracies in the world than at any other time in history. There is more food to go around than at any other time and each person on earth consumes more food than at any other time. Major plagues and diseases which wiped out entire populations have been largely eradicated.

Half empty? Worse and worse? Half full - better and better?

I guess the eye of the beholder is what determines reality?

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This is the new covenant.
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