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Old 07-14-2010, 08:15 PM
 
697 posts, read 912,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

I don't think the Hebrews really thought there was an afterlife, either. Or, if they did, it was just a shadowy world of some kind where both the good and bad hung out. Nothing like the Greek hells and such that came romping into Christianity.
So if there really was a hell, surely the Old Testament people would have known about it too? Or why all the frantic following of laws? I think they expected blessings in THIS life, not in any future life. Jesus came along and changed all that.

A common understanding is that after death, all people "sleep" until Judgment Day when all are awakened (physically resurrected) for judgment. So all people everywhere through the history of mankind who died are "sleeping" awaiting Judgment day. A pastor told me that to the dead the passage of years or thousands of years between death and resurrection is experienced as instantaneous. I got the feeling he'd really been thinking about that. I question that though, because of this true story: A man was dying of cancer. Shortly before his death in his hospital room, he began speaking to someone. He said "Hi Dad". His father had died years before. How was his father there to escort him home if he was asleep waiting for the Judgment Day?

But I digress. My point is that if there were a literal hell, wouldn't the Hebrews have known about it too?

For the record, I haven't ever called myself a Universalist. I'm open to the possibility that some cannot be saved and will simply perish. I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone could NOT be saved, but nevertheless, the idea is, to me, consistent with my reading of the Bible.

However, I don't accept the concept of eternal torment in any kind of hell. Sinners will be punished, that includes me, since I'm just a big ole' sinner! I read a book about near death experiences a few years ago that indicated that near death heaven experiences were very common, but near death hell experiences were very rare. Regardless of which they'd experienced tho, people were changed for the good. One description of the "hell" was this - the person experienced every single bad thing he'd ever done from the point of view of the person affected by it. That would be a powerful hell to me, to have to experience myself all the little hurts and slights I've inflicted on others in my life, on purpose or not, thoughtlessly or maliciously. Imagine that experience for someone who did something REALLY awful! Anyway the person came back profoundly changed, kinder, more faithful, etc. The whole concept doesn't contradict anything in the Bible to me, and in fact seems like a pretty awful torment to have to go through. But there is no question in my mind that one emerges from it to something else, and does not remain in it for eternity. However horrible you were in life, you will experience that after your death. Maybe there will be a rare soul who emerges from that experience rebellious and angry, not humbled and repentant. Maybe those souls perish. Those who are so pure as to not have to be subjected to it, might have their names written in the book....

I don't know. None of us do.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,634 posts, read 74,577,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Life wasn't always short, harsh, and brutal in the mideast. There is a reason for that mess over there. Also, many do not live well here in the U.S. and it has nothing to do with ingratitude. Mental and spiritual sorrow and confusion has much to do with the breakdown of our society.

Giving people bread and a roof doesn't always clear that up.
you mean all my friends and family from the middle east lied to me? hmmm. oh- i know what you mean. the rich have it great in the middle east. i get it.
yep like gloria says, huck when you got money everyplace is mardi gras.
as to ingratitude in america has nothing to do with lack of cheerfulness aka joy? you got to be kidding.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
you mean all my friends and family from the middle east lied to me? hmmm. oh- i know what you mean. the rich have it great in the middle east. i get it.
yep like gloria says, huck when you got money everyplace is mardi gras.
as to ingratitude in america has nothing to do with lack of cheerfulness aka joy? you got to be kidding.
I said life wasn't ALWAYS short, harsh, and brutal in the Middle East. And about ingratitude being the problem with American Society; maybe you should read "No Place of Grace, Antimodernism and the Transformation of American Culture 1880-1920," by Jackson Lears.

Anyway, Huck, I'm not going to argue with you here on this thread. This topic probably belongs in the political section, right? I don't do politics.

(P.S. Here are a few more good books: 1. "The True and Only Heaven, Progress and it's Critics" by Christopher Lasch. 2. "Haven In A Heartless World," by Christopher Lasch. 3. "Future Shock," by Alvin Toffler. 4. "The Lonely Crowd," by David Riesman.)

Last edited by herefornow; 07-15-2010 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:27 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,398,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
hmmmm...unconditional love....for those that keep His commandments yes...UR does not proclaim unconditional love...what it proclaims is that in essence, Jesus' death was insufficient....so therefore, it is conditional.

I don't know if sciotamicks is having a laugh, but i certainly laughed when i read this post.

"Unconditional love? For everyone who meet his conditions, yes" ... LOL ...


Sometimes i could swear that you are actually mocking God on purpose.


Am i the only one who notices this ... ?
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I don't know if sciotamicks is having a laugh, but i certainly laughed when i read this post.

"Unconditional love? For everyone who meet his conditions, yes" ... LOL ...


Sometimes i could swear that you are actually mocking God on purpose.


Am i the only one who notices this ... ?
Nope.

(Internet got cut off. Typing on phone. Short replies for a little while.)
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:27 PM
 
40,034 posts, read 26,715,004 times
Reputation: 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
I'm not following this, can you expand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
And I thought I was alone...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sciota you have got to be having a laugh . Everything you and the rest of the fundy's believe makes out God is insufficient in all things .

Does this verse tell us His love is conditional to those who keep His commandments or towards those while they were yet sinners ?

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I don't know if sciotamicks is having a laugh, but i certainly laughed when i read this post.

"Unconditional love? For everyone who meet his conditions, yes" ... LOL ...


Sometimes i could swear that you are actually mocking God on purpose.


Am i the only one who notices this ... ?
The lack of critical thinking is rampant in the rationale presented . . . as is any semblance of logic or reason. We are dealing with unthinking rote proclamations of the precepts and doctrines of men with no effort to understand or consider them intelligently.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:35 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,634 posts, read 74,577,828 times
Reputation: 48121
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I said life wasn't ALWAYS short, harsh, and brutal in the Middle East. And about ingratitude being the problem with American Society; maybe you should read "No Place of Grace, Antimodernism and the Transformation of American Culture 1880-1920," by Jackson Lears.

Anyway, Huck, I'm not going to argue with you here on this thread. This topic probably belongs in the political section, right? I don't do politics.

(P.S. Here are a few more good books: 1. "The True and Only Heaven, Progress and it's Critics" by Christopher Lasch. 2. "Haven In A Heartless World," by Christopher Lasch. 3. "Future Shock," by Alvin Toffler. 4. "The Lonely Crowd," by David Riesman.)
not sure why you are sharing your interest in authors lear and lasch with me.
familiar with both. rewriting history-- lost garden of eden theories and suspicion of the rising professional class in america.
the middle east has changed little in 2000 years. too much nuthin makes a fellow mean. they were never happy dan but a short life and hopes of fantastic quick glorious death and after life was the prize. as to cheerful christian-- christianity is nothing but a jewish spinoff religion albeheit an unpopular one and very much a middle eastern religion. to separate jew from arab and christian from jew is to make artificial distinctions about a mideastern people. life is hard in the mideast. what little joy there is is found in your kids and thinking about the after life. fools and thugs dont last long there, very low prison population.

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 07-16-2010 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,717,828 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I don't know if sciotamicks is having a laugh, but i certainly laughed when i read this post.

"Unconditional love? For everyone who meet his conditions, yes" ... LOL ...


Sometimes i could swear that you are actually mocking God on purpose.


Am i the only one who notices this ... ?
What - you don't get that?

Let me say it more plainer: You have to meet the conditions for unconditional love in order for the conditions to be dropped which then allows the love to be unconditional.

Get it???
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:42 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,091,303 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
What - you don't get that?

Let me say it more plainer: You have to meet the conditions for unconditional love in order for the conditions to be dropped which then allows the love to be unconditional.

Get it???
So true , you couldn't make it up.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,257 times
Reputation: 438
Below is from: Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

Seneca says: "Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, etc., are all a fable." Livy declares that Numa invented the doctrine, "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace."

History records nothing more distinctly than that the Greek and Roman Pagans borrowed of the Egyptians, and that some of the early Christians unconsciously absorbed, or studiously appropriated, the doctrines of the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans concerning post-mortem punishment, and gradually corrupted the "simplicity that is in Christ" by the inventions of antiquity, as from the same sources the Jews at the time of Christ had already corrupted their religion.
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