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The biblical truth of Universal Salvation and Reconciliation of All things, verses, the pagan origins and doctrines of hell within the minds of men.
During the first five centuries, there were six theological schools. Four of these; Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or perhaps Nisibis, were Universalist. One, referencing Ephesus, had accepted conditional mortality. And that of Another One (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. (The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007)
Clements of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.)
Gregory of Nazianzus (330-390 A.D.)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390 A.D.)
[Known as the Greek Church Fathers; who all believed in Universal Salvation]
The Nicene Creed was written in 325 A.D. and was completed in its present form in 381 A.D. And at the Second Ecumenical Council, there were over 300 Church leaders who gathered in Constantinople from all over the world. Interestingly, the Council was presided over by Gregory of Nazianzus. Also participating was Gregory of Nyssa, both appear to have met their deaths in or around 390 A.D. (?)
However, the fact that the Second Ecumenical Council had accepted the participation of these Church leaders who believed in Universal Salvation, including one who actually presided over the Council; proves the point that belief in Universal Salvation was common, and accepted in the first 400 years of the history of Christianity.
I believe this is that which has already been given by Lifertexan, and more, thus, in reference to the penalty of disobeying the decree of God who said, "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Sciotamicks, you say, or rather imply, which might be a better description:
"You shall, in the day you eat thereof, and after the death of the body, be subjected to the eternal torments of hell."
And the Lord said unto Cain, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground! Now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."
But you say (again, implying):
“You shall, in the day you die Cain, be subjected to the eternal torments of hell.”
Of course, now I understand, it’s "whosoever slayeth Cain, shall be subjected to the eternal torments of hell." Or, was that seven-fold more, as in forever and ever, to the power of seven?
It is of great importance that, unlike other Creeds; the Nicene Creed does not mention anything regarding hell. Also, I find it more than interesting that Augustine said, in his City of God, "This seems to have been done on no other account (the invention of endless punishment), but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes (emperors and priests), under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." B. iV 32. [ I believe these relate to your opening post]
So, if Augustine truly did not believe in endless punishment and there was a significant reason for not mentioning anything regarding Hell in the Nicene Creed, and the Scriptures do not speak of it from the beginning of creation, then, I am compelled to ask the question: Why do you?
Death and the pagan thoughts of an underworld (Hell) are cast into the Lake of Fire.
"Lord, you have rescued us from the depths of Hades."
When time permits, I will put forth more than a synopsis, and there will not be any twisting of the Scriptures. But for now, would you answer the question from the heart of the Spirit, and not from the minds of men who’s Spirits (hearts) are corrupt.
In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; He has overcome the world.
You might want to source this material, because it is obvious, it is a copy and paste........and not your words entirely.
Here is a list of the early church fathers and their works....lots of them, and only a few of them are supported some of the doctrines of Origen.
Most of these works are available online, and we will, as time goes on, produce many of their texts that counter the premise of UR.
Alexander of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius
Alexander of Lycopolis
- Of the Manicheans
Ambrose (340-397) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Christian Faith (De fide)
- On the Holy Spirit
- On the Mysteries
- On Repentance
- On the Duties of the Clergy
- Concerning Virgins
- Concerning Widows
- On the Death of Satyrus
- Memorial of Symmachus
- Sermon against Auxentius
- Letters
Aphrahat/Aphraates (c. 280-367)
- Demonstrations
Archelaus
- Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
Aristides the Philosopher
- The Apology
Arnobius
- Against the Heathen
Athanasius [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Against the Heathen
- On the Incarnation of the Word
- Deposition of Arius
- Statement of Faith
- On Luke 10:22 (Matthew 11:27)
- Circular Letter
- Apologia Contra Arianos
- De Decretis
- De Sententia Dionysii
- Vita S. Antoni (Life of St. Anthony)
- Ad Episcopus Aegypti et Libyae
- Apologia ad Constantium
- Apologia de Fuga
- Historia Arianorum
- Four Discourses Against the Arians
- De Synodis
- Tomus ad Antiochenos
- Ad Afros Epistola Synodica
- Historia Acephala
- Letters
Athenagoras
- A Plea for the Christians
- The Resurrection of the Dead
Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Confessions
- Letters
- City of God
- Christian Doctrine
- On the Holy Trinity
- The Enchiridion
- On the Catechising of the Uninstructed
- On Faith and the Creed
- Concerning Faith of Things Not Seen
- On the Profit of Believing
- On the Creed: A Sermon to Catechumens
- On Continence
- On the Good of Marriage
- On Holy Virginity
- On the Good of Widowhood
- On Lying
- To Consentius: Against Lying
- On the Work of Monks
- On Patience
- On Care to be Had For the Dead
- On the Morals of the Catholic Church
- On the Morals of the Manichaeans
- On Two Souls, Against the Manichaeans
- Acts or Disputation Against Fortunatus the Manichaean
- Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
- Reply to Faustus the Manichaean
- Concerning the Nature of Good, Against the Manichaeans
- On Baptism, Against the Donatists
- Answer to Letters of Petilian, Bishop of Cirta
- Merits and Remission of Sin, and Infant Baptism
- On the Spirit and the Letter
- On Nature and Grace
- On Man's Perfection in Righteousness
- On the Proceedings of Pelagius
- On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin
- On Marriage and Concupiscence
- On the Soul and its Origin
- Against Two Letters of the Pelagians
- On Grace and Free Will
- On Rebuke and Grace
- The Predestination of the Saints/Gift of Perseverance
- Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount
- The Harmony of the Gospels
- Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament
- Tractates on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the First Epistle of John
- Soliloquies
- The Enarrations, or Expositions, on the Psalms
Bardesanes (154-222)
- The Book of the Laws of Various Countries
Barnabas [SAINT]
- Epistle of Barnabas
Basil the Great [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- De Spiritu Sancto
- Nine Homilies of Hexaemeron
- Letters
Caius
- Fragments
Clement of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?
- Exhortation to the Heathen
- The Instructor
- The Stromata, or Miscellanies
- Fragments
Clement of Rome [SAINT]
- First Epistle
- Second Epistle [SPURIOUS]
- Two Epistles Concerning Virginity [SPURIOUS]
- Recognitions [SPURIOUS]
- Clementine Homilies [SPURIOUS]
Commodianus
- Writings
Cyprian of Carthage [SAINT]
- The Life and Passion of Cyprian By Pontius the Deacon
- The Epistles of Cyprian
- The Treatises of Cyprian
- The Seventh Council of Carthage
Cyril of Jerusalem [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Catechetical Lectures
Dionysius of Rome [SAINT]
- Against the Sabellians
Dionysius the Great
- Epistles and Epistolary Fragments
- Exegetical Fragments
- Miscellaneous Fragments
Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Nisibene Hymns
- Miscellaneous Hymns -- On the Nativity of Christ in the Flesh, For the Feast of the Epiphany, and On the Faith ("The Pearl")
- Homilies -- On Our Lord, On Admonition and Repentance, and On the Sinful Woman
Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 265-c. 340)
- Church History
- Life of Constantine
- Oration of Constantine "to the Assembly of the Saints"
- Oration in Praise of Constantine
- Letter on the Council of Nicaea
Gennadius of Marseilles
- Illustrious Men (Supplement to Jerome)
Gregory the Great, Pope (c. 540-604) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Pastoral Rule
- Register of Letters
Gregory Nazianzen [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Orations
- Letters
Gregory of Nyssa [SAINT]
- Against Eunomius
- Answer to Eunomius' Second Book
- On the Holy Spirit (Against the Followers of Macedonius)
- On the Holy Trinity, and of the Godhead of the Holy Spirit (To Eustathius)
- On "Not Three Gods" (To Ablabius)
- On the Faith (To Simplicius)
- On Virginity
- On Infants' Early Deaths
- On Pilgrimages
- On the Making of Man
- On the Soul and the Resurrection
- The Great Catechism
- Funeral Oration on Meletius
- On the Baptism of Christ (Sermon for the Day of Lights)
- Letters
Gregory Thaumaturgus [SAINT]
- A Declaration of Faith
- A Metaphrase of the Book of Ecclesiastes
- Canonical Epistle
- The Oration and Panegyric Addressed to Origen
- A Sectional Confession of Faith
- On the Trinity
- Twelve Topics on the Faith
- On the Subject of the Soul
- Four Homilies
- On All the Saints
- On Matthew 6:22-23
Hermas
- The Pastor (or "The Shepherd")
Hilary of Poitiers [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns
- On the Trinity
- Homilies on the Psalms
Hippolytus [SAINT]
- The Refutation of All Heresies
- Some Exegetical Fragments of Hippolytus
- Expository Treatise Against the Jews
- Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe
- Against the Heresy of Noetus
- Discourse on the Holy Theophany
- The Antichrist
- The End of the World (Pseudonymous)
- The Apostles and the Disciples (Pseudonymous)
Ignatius of Antioch [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Ephesians
- Epistle to the Magnesians
- Epistle to the Trallians
- Epistle to the Romans
- Epistle to the Philadelphians
- Epistle to the Smyrnæans
- Epistle to Polycarp
- The Martyrdom of Ignatius
- The Spurious Epistles
Irenaeus of Lyons [SAINT]
- Adversus haereses
- Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
Jerome [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Letters
- The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary
- To Pammachius Against John of Jerusalem
- The Dialogue Against the Luciferians
- The Life of Malchus, the Captive Monk
- The Life of S. Hilarion
- The Life of Paulus the First Hermit
- Against Jovinianus
- Against Vigilantius
- Against the Pelagians
- Prefaces
- De Viris Illustribus (Illustrious Men)
- Apology for himself against the Books of Rufinus
John of Damascus [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Exposition of the Faith
John Cassian (c. 360-c. 435)
- Institutes
- Conferences
- On the Incarnation of the Lord (Against Nestorius)
John Chrysostom [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew
- Homilies on Acts
- Homilies on Romans
- Homilies on First Corinthians
- Homilies on Second Corinthians
- Homilies on Ephesians
- Homilies on Philippians
- Homilies on Colossians
- Homilies on First Thessalonians
- Homilies on Second Thessalonians
- Homilies on First Timothy
- Homilies on Second Timothy
- Homilies on Titus
- Homilies on Philemon
- Commentary on Galatians
- Homilies on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the Epistle to the Hebrews
- Homilies on the Statues
- No One Can Harm the Man Who Does Not Injure Himself
- Two Letters to Theodore After His Fall
- Letter to a Young Widow
- Homily on St. Ignatius
- Homily on St. Babylas
- Homily Concerning "Lowliness of Mind"
- Instructions to Catechumens
- Three Homilies on the Power of Satan
- Homily on the Passage "Father, if it be possible . . ."
- Homily on the Paralytic Lowered Through the Roof
- Homily on the Passage "If your enemy hunger, feed him."
- Homily Against Publishing the Errors of the Brethren
- First Homily on Eutropius
- Second Homily on Eutropius (After His Captivity)
- Four Letters to Olympias
- Letter to Some Priests of Antioch
- Correspondence with Pope Innocent I
- On the Priesthood
Julius Africanus
- Extant Writings
Justin Martyr [SAINT]
- First Apology
- Second Apology
- Dialogue with Trypho
- Hortatory Address to the Greeks
- On the Sole Government of God
- Fragments of the Lost Work on the Resurrection
- Miscellaneous Fragments from Lost Writings
- Martyrdom of Justin, Chariton, and other Roman Martyrs
- Discourse to the Greeks
Lactantius
- The Divine Institutes
- The Epitome of the Divine Institutes
- On the Anger of God
- On the Workmanship of God
- Of the Manner In Which the Persecutors Died
- Fragments of Lactantius
- The Phoenix
- A Poem on the Passion of the Lord
Leo the Great, Pope (c. 395-461) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Sermons
- Letters
Malchion
- Epistle
Mar Jacob (452-521)
- Canticle on Edessa
- Homily on Habib the Martyr
- Homily on Guria and Shamuna
Mathetes
- Epistle to Diognetus
Methodius
- The Banquet of the Ten Virgins
- Concerning Free Will
- From the Discourse on the Resurrection
- Fragments
- Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
- Oration on the Psalms
- Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ
Minucius Felix
- Octavius
Moses of Chorene (c. 400-c. 490)
- History of Armenia
Novatian
- Treatise Concerning the Trinity
- On the Jewish Meats
Origen
- De Principiis
- Africanus to Origen
- Origen to Africanus
- Origen to Gregory
- Against Celsus
- Letter of Origen to Gregory
- Commentary on the Gospel of John
- Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
Pamphilus [SAINT]
- Exposition on the Acts of the Apostles
Papias [SAINT]
- Fragments
Peter of Alexandria [SAINT]
- The Genuine Acts
- The Canonical Epistle
- Fragments
Polycarp [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Philippians
- The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Rufinus
- Apology
- Commentary on the Apostles' Creed
- Prefaces and Other Works
Socrates Scholasticus (c. 379-c. 450)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sozomen (c. 375-c. 447)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sulpitius Severus (c. 363-c. 420)
- On the Life of St. Martin
- Letters -- Genuine and Dubious
- Dialogues
- Sacred History
Tatian
- Address to the Greeks
- Fragments
- The Diatessaron
Tertullian
- The Apology
- On Idolatry
- De Spectaculis (The Shows)
- De Corona (The Chaplet)
- To Scapula
- Ad Nationes
- An Answer to the Jews
- The Soul's Testimony
- A Treatise on the Soul
- The Prescription Against Heretics
- Against Marcion
- Against Hermogenes
- Against the Valentinians
- On the Flesh of Christ
- On the Resurrection of the Flesh
- Against Praxeas
- Scorpiace
- Appendix (Against All Heresies)
- On Repentance
- On Baptism
- On Prayer
- Ad Martyras
- The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (Sometimes attributed to Tertullian)
- Of Patience
- On the Pallium
- On the Apparel of Women
- On the Veiling of Virgins
- To His Wife
- On Exhortation to Chastity
- On Monogamy
- On Modesty
- On Fasting
- De Fuga in Persecutione
Theodoret
- Counter-Statements to Cyril's 12 Anathemas against Nestorius
- Ecclesiastical History
- Dialogues ("Eranistes" or "Polymorphus")
- Demonstrations by Syllogism
- Letters
Theodotus
- Excerpts
Theophilus
- Theophilus to Autolycus
Venantius
- Poem on Easter
Victorinus [SAINT]
- On the Creation of the World
- Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Vincent of Lérins (d. c. 450) [SAINT]
- Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith
OTHER WORKS
Liturgies
- The Liturgy of James
- The Liturgy of Mark
- The Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles
Councils
- Carthage under Cyprian (257) [LOCAL]
- Ancyra (314) [LOCAL]
- Neocaesarea (315) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea I (325) [ECUMENICAL]
- Antioch in Encaeniis (341) [LOCAL]
- Gangra (343) [LOCAL]
- Sardica (344) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople I (381) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople (382) [LOCAL]
- Laodicea (390) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople under Nectarius (394) [LOCAL]
- Carthage (419) [LOCAL]
- Ephesus (431) [ECUMENICAL]
- Chalcedon (451) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople II (553) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople III (680) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople/"Trullo"/Quinisext (692) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea II (787) [ECUMENICAL]
Apocrypha
- Apocalypse of Peter (c. 130)
- Protoevangelium of James (c. 150)
- Acts of Paul and Thecla (c. 180)
- Gospel of Peter (c. 190) [DOCETIC]
- The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (c. 192) [EBIONITIC]
- Acts of Peter and Paul (c. 200)
- Gospel of Thomas (c. 200) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thomas (c. 240) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thaddaeus (c. 250)
- Acts of Andrew (c. 260) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena (c. 270)
- Acts of John [DOCETIC]
- Acts of Philip (c. 350)
- Apocalypse of Paul (c. 380)
- Gospel of Nicodemus (Including "Acta Pilati") (c. 150-400)
- The Doctrine of Addai (c. 400) -- This is a Syriac version of the earlier Acts of Thaddaeus (s.v.)
- Assumption of Mary (c. 400)
- History of Joseph the Carpenter (c. 400)
- Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (c. 400)
- Acts of Barnabas (c. 500)
- Acts of Bartholomew (c. 500) [NESTORIAN]
- Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle (c. 550) [ABYSSINIAN]
- Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour (c. 600)
- Avenging of the Saviour (c. 700)
- Apocalypse of John (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of Moses (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Apocalypse of Esdras (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Testament of Abraham (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Narrative of Zosimus (unknown date)
- Gospel of the Nativity of Mary (unknown date; late)
- Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea (unknown date; late)
- Report of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Letter of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Giving Up of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Death of Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of the Virgin (unknown date; very late)
- Apocalypse of Sedrach (unknown date; very late)
- Acts of Andrew and Matthias
- Acts of Peter and Andrew
- Consummation of Thomas the Apostle
Miscellaneous
- The Didache (c. 100)
- Apostolic Constitutions (c. 400)
- The Legend of Barlaam and Josaphat
- The Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs (c. 180)
- A Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian (c. 255)
- A Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 255)
- Remains of the Second and Third Centuries (various dates)
- Apostolic Canons (c. 400) -- See Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII, Chapter 47
- Acts of Sharbil (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Martyrdom of Barsamya (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Extracts from Various Books Concerning Abgar the King and Addaeus the Apostle (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of the Apostles (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of Habib the Deacon (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of the Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, and Habib (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- A Letter of Mara, Son of Serapion (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Ambrose (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The False Decretals (c. 850)
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Again, I will restate my rebuttal more verbose:
ET was not created by Latin church fathers, like Tertullian and Augustine and post Nicene Council. ET doctrine was created at the onset of Creation.
Now prove that it was, and wasn't.
Again, we are not looking for over-emotional responses and pagan philosophies. We want Biblical, Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, sacred writings, etc, that the people of the covenant and faith, that penned the two testaments, referred to and believed in, and related to, concerning this doctrine. We are also looking for any of the early church fathers, starting with the 1st Century AD. Please do not go off topic.
Thanks and God bless.
No one except fundamentalists who twist the meaning of the word 'sheol' and interpreted passages like Isaiah 66:24 like later rabbis did believed the OT even hinted at eternal torment.
God never said, 'if you eat the fruit you will burn in hell forever.'
If you want to talk about emotionally charged responses you shouldn't ignore the early Church fathers etc who positively salivated at the idea of the righteous partying it up with God while the ungoldly suffered in some everlasting sea of fire. Yeah, that's totally without emotion, isn't it?
Eternal torment is WRONG whatever way you look at it and arguing endlessly will not make it any more right.
You might want to source this material, because it is obvious, it is a copy and paste........and not your words entirely.
If you were not busy coping and pasting, given that it only took six minutes between your first and second posts; you would have noticed the source(s) in the body of words.
However, the quotes and question belong to me. Let us not mislead the members of this forum in the pretense of being an intellectual based on your evasiveness.
you can save yourselves a lot of time of cutting and pasting, by simply reading the Book of Acts. Hell was not preached, nor was it mentioned in their epistles the way you preach it.
Jesus Christ was the Second Adam, and He is renewing mankind (ALL of it) through His new nature which the first Adam failed to do.
All mankind is being born in this new nature; the old Adam nature is dead and passing away.
You are aware that what you have presented here is during the crusades, after 150 AD. The latin church developed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
I'm not sure what you are trying to claim.The Latin church developed centuries before the Sack of Constantinople and then invaded Constantinople,destroying,stealing and burning many things,such as written works they disagreed with.Nothing you said challenges what I said.
Quote:
UR was declared a heresy in 544 AD. UR was also an doctrine, that ORIGEN warned pious and laymen not to even attempt to understand or even read for that matter, and even he himself, did not agree with some of his thoughts....maybe a quick course of his opening statements might help? Origen, allegedly trained in the school of Clement and by his father, has been considered by predominantly the entire Chrisitian church of his time, essentially a Platonist with occasional traces of Stoic philosophy. While this might yet be the general scholarly consensus, it might be more useful to designate Origen a Middle Platonist, along with Philo of Alexandria, even if such a school never properly existed.
Yes,UR was eventually declared heresy with the aid and influence of the Roman emperors behind the Latin church.One of them was even the one who ordered the council that did so to be held.None of which changes in the least the fact that eastern churches believed and taught it before the Latin churches influenced the decision on it being heresy.Again,nothing here challenges my point.
Quote:
I never claimed that the church as a whole was ET, I claimed that ET preceded UR, and that UR, even though it was discussed and debated in a many of the schools, which were merely gathering areas for theologians of the time, it by no means encompassed the entire church body. Here is where you, and many others err in light of your misinformation.
I am not sure what misinformation you are referring to.This entire thread started with YOU taking issue with another poster in another thread who claimed that the Latin church suppressed the eastern church's teachings on UR.Since you are agreeing that the eastern church did teach UR,however grudgingly you try to word such agreement,before the Latin church influenced the decision it was heresy,I think we are done here.The poster in the other thread has been shown to be correct in what he claimed,and you have admitted that UR was a teaching of the early church.So we are through here.
I'm not sure what you are trying to claim.The Latin church developed centuries before the Sack of Constantinople and then invaded Constantinople,destroying,stealing and burning many things,such as written works they disagreed with.Nothing you said challenges what I said.
You said in your post, that the information you provided supported UR being part of the church prior to 150 AD. I asked what you posted had anything to do with this premise. It didn't, so therefore, the inofrmation you provided is rendered useless to you debate.
Quote:
Yes,UR was eventually declared heresy with the aid and influence of the Roman emperors behind the Latin church.One of them was even the one who ordered the council that did so to be held.None of which changes in the least the fact that eastern churches believed and taught it before the Latin churches influenced the decision on it being heresy.Again,nothing here challenges my point.
They didn't teach it, they debated and contented it. These "schools" did not have fresh students, green to the knowledge, like we do today, if you study any amount of remedial history concerning these various theological schools. Those that attended these schools were theologians and scholars, far from the reaches of the common congregation throughout the known world that believed in Christianity. This information is everywhere on the internet. All one has to do is look. Secondly, Universalism, or at least, the core teaching of Origen on the salvation of demons, Satan, etc, were not widely accepted throughout the eastern churches and the schools in which UR uses for their advantage. What you have failed to realize is the limited window of history where these ideas were discussed and debated, in contrast to the teachings of the eternal fire/hell thousands of years prior to in Judaism, and thousands of years after in Christianity and in Judaism. This is where UR, and its cohorts, fail to grasp the weight of the subject. If the Holy Spirit wanted this doctrine to be prevailing in the church since its inception to now, then the Holy Spirit would make it a reality, which it didn't, so it isn't. I put my faith in God in these matters, and His work and evidence in the matter, speaks volumes against your premise and debate. The concept of "temporary correction in fire" later became known as purgatory, a widely held concept in the schools mentioned that purportedly support these various doctrines of Universal Reconciliation.
Quote:
I am not sure what misinformation you are referring to.This entire thread started with YOU taking issue with another poster in another thread who claimed that the Latin church suppressed the eastern church's teachings on UR.Since you are agreeing that the eastern church did teach UR,however grudgingly you try to word such agreement,before the Latin church influenced the decision it was heresy,I think we are done here.The poster in the other thread has been shown to be correct in what he claimed,and you have admitted that UR was a teaching of the early church.So we are through here.
See above. Heresy has existed in all forms throughout the church of Christ. And however long or short their duration was, they were all eventually stamped out from the Christian theology, including Universalism, however short its duration was realistically, it still was removed from the doctrines of Christianity. Your case is mute.
Finally, lifertexan, again I repeat, this has nothing to do with another thread, this has only to do with this thread and its OP, and if you want to continue the debate further with information that UR existed outside the feeble window that it has in historical Christianity, then by all means, please bring forth your sources. But mere assumptions and link concerning the crusades presupposing without actual dates, that the latin church began before 150 AD, we are all eyes and ears, but that information you have not provided. The Latin church began after 150 AD, which does not support your doctrine, so the point in even bringing it up is mute. There was plenty of violence from all around the world, including Christianity, as we are men, and subject to the evils of the heart, and that exists in all mankind, and the only one that was able to defeat that in real time, was Jesus Christ. The fact of the matter is, that the doctrines in contrast to universalism prevailed since the beginning of creation with Adam and Eve's curse, and carried on throught many millenia, as opposed to the feeble two hudred years of history that universalism claims to have prevailed.
In my opinion, we are done here, unless you want to provide more sources that universalism existed in the church prior to your little window in time.
If you were not busy coping and pasting, given that it only took six minutes between your first and second posts; you would have noticed the source(s) in the body of words.
However, the quotes and question belong to me. Let us not mislead the members of this forum in the pretense of being an intellectual based on your evasiveness.
LOL...prove it. I type all my responses in wordpad so I don't lose what I wrote. It has happened many times. Are you bearing false witness against me?
Here is the link to you source FYI:
The NiceneCreed was written in 325A.D. and completed in itspresentform above, in 381A. D. The Second Ecumenical Council composed of over 300 church leaders, from all over the world, gathered in Constantinople to revise the first NiceneCreed to itspresentform. This revision was in response to a heresy called Arianism, which denied that Jesus Christ was fully God.
The biblical truth of Universal Salvation and Reconciliation of All things, verses, the pagan origins and doctrines of hell within the minds of men.
During the first five centuries, there were six theological schools. Four of these; Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or perhaps Nisibis, were Universalist. One, referencing Ephesus, had accepted conditional mortality. And that of Another One (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. (The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007)
Clements of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.)
Gregory of Nazianzus (330-390 A.D.)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390 A.D.)
[Known as the Greek Church Fathers; who all believed in Universal Salvation]
The Nicene Creed was written in 325 A.D. and was completed in its present form in 381 A.D. And at the Second Ecumenical Council, there were over 300 Church leaders who gathered in Constantinople from all over the world.
Interestingly, the Council was presided over by Gregory of Nazianzus. Also participating was Gregory of Nyssa, both appear to have met their deaths in or around 390 A.D. (?)
However, the fact that the Second Ecumenical Council had accepted the participation of these Church leaders who believed in Universal Salvation, including one who actually presided over the Council; proves the point that belief in Universal Salvation was common, and accepted in the first 400 years of the history of Christianity.
I believe this is that which has already been given by Lifertexan, and more, thus, in reference to the penalty of disobeying the decree of God who said, "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Sciotamicks, you say, or rather imply, which might be a better description:
"You shall, in the day you eat thereof, and after the death of the body, be subjected to the eternal torments of hell."
And the Lord said unto Cain, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground! Now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."
But you say (again, implying):
“You shall, in the day you die Cain, be subjected to the eternal torments of hell.”
Of course, now I understand, it’s "whosoever slayeth Cain, shall be subjected to the eternal torments of hell." Or, was that seven-fold more, as in forever and ever, to the power of seven?
It is of great importance that, unlike other Creeds; the Nicene Creed does not mention anything regarding hell. Also, I find it more than interesting that Augustine said, in his City of God, "This seems to have been done on no other account (the invention of endless punishment), but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes (emperors and priests), under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." B. iV 32. [ I believe these relate to your opening post]
So, if Augustine truly did not believe in endless punishment and there was a significant reason for not mentioning anything regarding Hell in the Nicene Creed, and the Scriptures do not speak of it from the beginning of creation, then, I am compelled to ask the question: Why do you?
Death and the pagan thoughts of an underworld (Hell) are cast into the Lake of Fire.
"Lord, you have rescued us from the depths of Hades."
When time permits, I will put forth more than a synopsis, and there will not be any twisting of the Scriptures. But for now, would you answer the question from the heart of the Spirit, and not from the minds of men who’s Spirits (hearts) are corrupt.
In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; He has overcome the world.
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Amen.
