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We are getting into the realm of "faith" here. Anyone with half a brain understands that the bible contradicts itself.
However, where people of faith differ is on their interpretation of "jesus fulfilled the law" and things of that nature. And as such, you aren't going to get through to them with saying that the messiah of the OT is hardly the messiah that Jesus was supposed to have been.
Christians reconcile this difference by saying "In Jesus's second coming....." that he will fulfill the old definition. Again, this is faith, not something that can be logically debated.
My point of this whole thing was this. That if you judge all Muslims by what their holy book says, then by the same tone, all Christians must be judged on what their holy book says.
Of course, most Muslims and Christians alike don't follow their faiths to the letter (thank God!). Which is why its asinine to try and portray Muslims as some blood thirsty evil religion.
Yes...I fully understand that they have their own spin on what exactly their Messiah did and will do later on (a second coming which isn't even part of the Jewish Messiah prophecy). Unfortunately...their Messiah differs greatly from the Messiah the Jews are still expecting because Jesus did not qualify in any form or fashion according to the OT...this is something Christians just refuse to acknowledge or simply choose to ignore completely. They always know how to interpret Jewish prophecy better or more accurately than the Jews who wrote it do.
It's always easy for Christians to point their finger at the Muslims and the asininity in their book...but when you show Christians the very same asinity contained in their own book...it's a different story.
Yes...I fully understand that they have their own spin on what exactly their Messiah did and will do later on (a second coming which isn't even part of the Jewish Messiah prophecy). Unfortunately...their Messiah differs greatly from the Messiah the Jews are still expecting because Jesus did not qualify in any form or fashion according to the OT...this is something Christians just refuse to acknowledge or simply choose to ignore completely. They always know how to interpret Jewish prophecy better or more accurately than the Jews who wrote it do.
It's always easy for Christians to point their finger at the Muslims and the asininity in their book...but when you show Christians the very same asinity contained in their own book...it's a different story.
I agree with you, which is why I pointed out what the Hebrew word for "fulfill" meant. Also, what the Hebrew word for "The law" meant.
Jesus said on several occasions that the law (the Torah) should be followed to the letter. It was the fact that Gentiles and others of various religious faiths simply wouldn't adhere to the strict doctrine as laid out in the Torah as their own. Romans like pork, the women like to wear their hair down, etc. Christianity wouldn't have become a world wide religion if it didn't allow for the picking and choosing of Mosaic law.
What I find detestable today is that Christians now want to rely on Mosaic law to justify things like gay marriage and others with their view on political matters, and now they are not only picking and choosing which laws to follow, but how to follow the law itself.
I agree with you, which is why I pointed out what the Hebrew word for "fulfill" meant. Also, what the Hebrew word for "The law" meant.
Jesus said on several occasions that the law (the Torah) should be followed to the letter. It was the fact that Gentiles and others of various religious faiths simply wouldn't adhere to the strict doctrine as laid out in the Torah as their own. Romans like pork, the women like to wear their hair down, etc. Christianity wouldn't have become a world wide religion if it didn't allow for the picking and choosing of Mosaic law.
What I find detestable today is that Christians now want to rely on Mosaic law to justify things like gay marriage and others with their view on political matters, and now they are not only picking and choosing which laws to follow, but how to follow the law itself.
Agreed...they will claim that Jesus abolished/fulfilled the Law and that it no longer has to be followed...but they sure love to trot that same Law out from time to time when it suits their agenda (especially for tithing)...it's just typical hypocritical behavior.
Yes...I fully understand that they have their own spin on what exactly their Messiah did and will do later on (a second coming which isn't even part of the Jewish Messiah prophecy). Unfortunately...their Messiah differs greatly from the Messiah the Jews are still expecting because Jesus did not qualify in any form or fashion according to the OT...this is something Christians just refuse to acknowledge or simply choose to ignore completely. They always know how to interpret Jewish prophecy better or more accurately than the Jews who wrote it do.
It's always easy for Christians to point their finger at the Muslims and the asininity in their book...but when you show Christians the very same asinity contained in their own book...it's a different story.
I am still waiting for your reply to the points in my post. I hope you actually take the time to back up what you say, rather than posting links then ignoring the conversation that follows.
I am still waiting for your reply to the points in my post. I hope you actually take the time to back up what you say, rather than posting links then ignoring the conversation that follows.
How about we allow the Jews (you know the ones who actually wrote the OT) tell us why their Messiah has not yet come...study it thoroughly (that means read it and study it/don't just gloss over it or allow you mind to glaze over the parts that you don't like) and then you tell me whether or not I've backed up what I stated.
How about we allow the Jews (you know the ones who actually wrote the OT) tell us why their Messiah has not yet come...study it thoroughly (that means read it and study it/don't just gloss over it or allow you mind to glaze over the parts that you don't like) and then you tell me whether or not I've backed up what I stated.
You haven't stated anything! You keep posting links, but you don't reply to anything I say. Please reply to the content I posted. This should be a discussion. Until you have the respect to actually reply to me instead of dumping links off of Google, I am not sure how we can have a conversation.
I replied to your links, point by point. Give me the same respect or don't bother posting here again.
You seem incapable of replying to points I have made.
You haven't stated anything! You keep posting links, but you don't reply to anything I say. Please reply to the content I posted. This should be a discussion. Until you have the respect to actually reply to me instead of dumping links off of Google, I am not sure how we can have a conversation.
I replied to your links, point by point. Give me the same respect or don't bother posting here again.
You seem incapable of replying to points I have made.
Once you understand the way the Hebrew scripture has been mangled in the NT...you will then be able to understand why the points you brought out were meaningless as pertains to actual Jewish Messiah prophecy. Until you can fully understand why Jesus IS NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH according to Jews (afterall it is their book we are attempting to discuss)...there is really nothing to discuss.
Once you understand the way the Hebrew scripture has been mangled in the NT...you will then be able to understand why the points you brought out were meaningless as pertains to actual Jewish Messiah prophecy. Until you can fully understand why Jesus IS NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH according to Jews (afterall it is their book we are attempting to discuss)...there is really nothing to discuss.
ChristyGrl - I responded to what you posted point by point. Which specific points in my replies do you disagree with?
ChristyGrl - I responded to what you posted point by point. Which specific points in my replies do you disagree with?
I disagree with everything you posted...anything you put a Christian spin on cannot be regarded because it completely contradicts the actual Hebrew scripture...below are just a few out of hundreds of more reasons why Jesus IS NOT the Jewish Messiah:
The Jewish Messiah is to be a mortal human being born to two mortal parents. He is neither to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the Messiah would be a god or God-like, or that he would be born to a virgin. The concept of the former contradicts the Jewish concept of God being above and beyond taking human form and limitations. Jews believe that only God should be worshipped, not a being of His creation, not even the Messiah himself. Besides, nowhere in the Bible is there any virgins giving birth. This idea is only found in pagan mythology, where virgins often bare offsping of gods. The only purpose of the concept of virgin birth is to attract pagans to Christianity.
The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews to the Holy Land, but Jesus lived while the Jews were still there before they were exiled by the Romans. How can he return them to their land if they were still living in it?
The Messiah is to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing.
The Bible states that the Messiah will redeem Israel, but 30 years after Jesus died, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled by the Roman to suffer 1900 years of persecution, mostly by the followers of Jesus.
The Prophets of the Bible foretold that all the nations of the world will acknowlege and worship the one true God (Isaiah 11.9, 45, and Zephaniah 3), but nothing like this happened after Jesus died; in fact, Islam develpoed and became the religion of many nations while Christianity splintered into many sects which constantly fight each other, and almost two-thirds of the human race worships idols. The world is very far from monotheism even to this day.
The Messiah's influence will extend to all who will worship God in the Jerusalem Temple. As the Prophet states, "My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations. This has clearly not taken place yet; therefore, the Messiah hasn't come yet.
A new spirit will fill the world man will no longer sin or commit crimes, especially the Jews (Deutteronomy 30: 6, Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 50:20, and Ezekiel 36:21). Soon after the days of Jesus, ignorance of God, science, and philosophy filled the earth, and the Dark Ages began.
If Jesus was God, why did he pray to and talk to himself?
The true Messiah will reign as King of the Jews. Jesus' career as a wandering preacher and "faith healer" lasted only three years until he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal without any official postition or authority whatsoever.
One of the Messiah's main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day.
Mark 13:30 and Matthew 4 states that the prophecies about the Messiah would take place during Jesus' generation, but nothing was accomplished after 2,000 years.
Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a "second coming". Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus' failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible's prophecies.
The Bible says that the Messiah would be descened from King David. If Jesus is the "Son of God", how could he be descened from King David from his father's side?
Missionaries constantly and deliberatly distort the meaning of the prophets' words in order to substantiate their claims; for example, the Hebrew term in Isaiah , "almah" means "young woman", not "virgin". Honest Christian scholars now admit this is a "pious fraud", and they translate the word correctly in the "Reverse Standard Version" of the Bible.
If Jesus' raising from the dead was so important to demonstrate who he was, why did it take place in secret instead of in the presence of his "thousands' of followers?
Jesus claimed that he didn't intend to change the laws of Moses (Matthew 5), but he later abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate the Sabbath despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can't be abolished or changed.
Judaism believes that God is eternal, above, and beyond time. He can't be born, die, suffer, "become flesh", or be divivded into sections ("Father, Son, and Holy Ghost").
If Jesus was the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that not one of the rabbis of the time accept his claim? Why did all the educated men and prominent men reject him?
If Jesus was the Messiah, why did most of his own people, the Jews of that time, reject him, including his own family? Why did his followers consist almost completely of a handful of poorly educated people?
Jesus ordered his followers to preach to the Jews only, not the Gentiles (Matthew 10), but his followers did the exact opposite. He clearly considered himself the Messiah of the Jews only, but he is accepted by foreign nations, and not the Jews.
The purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all the Jews will observe the Torah and to teach it to all humankind who will accept its truths. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that the Messiah will abolish it. The Torah is eternal.
Nowhere in the Torah does it state that forgivness of a person's sins can be brought about by someone else's death. Each man isaccountable for his own sins, and each man must repent of his own sins by changing his ways and seeking God's forgiveness.
Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give different accounts of Jesus being descended from King David through his father Joseph. Although the New Testament authors claim that Jesus was the "son of David", the manner of his allegedly miraculous "virgin birth" rules out the possibility of a Davidic lineage for him. According to Jewish law, tribal lineage/blood right is passed exclusively by a father to his biological sons and therefore cannot be transmitted in any other manner, including adoption.
Like I said...if you are UNWILLING to find out exactly why the Jews reject Jesus as Messiah...we really have nothing to discuss.
I disagree with everything you posted...anything you put a Christian spin on cannot be regarded because it completely contradicts the actual Hebrew scripture...below are just a few out of hundreds of more reasons why Jesus IS NOT the Jewish Messiah:
The Jewish Messiah is to be a mortal human being born to two mortal parents. He is neither to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the Messiah would be a god or God-like, or that he would be born to a virgin. The concept of the former contradicts the Jewish concept of God being above and beyond taking human form and limitations. Jews believe that only God should be worshipped, not a being of His creation, not even the Messiah himself. Besides, nowhere in the Bible is there any virgins giving birth. This idea is only found in pagan mythology, where virgins often bare offsping of gods. The only purpose of the concept of virgin birth is to attract pagans to Christianity.
The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews to the Holy Land, but Jesus lived while the Jews were still there before they were exiled by the Romans. How can he return them to their land if they were still living in it?
The Messiah is to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing.
The Bible states that the Messiah will redeem Israel, but 30 years after Jesus died, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled by the Roman to suffer 1900 years of persecution, mostly by the followers of Jesus.
The Prophets of the Bible foretold that all the nations of the world will acknowlege and worship the one true God (Isaiah 11.9, 45, and Zephaniah 3), but nothing like this happened after Jesus died; in fact, Islam develpoed and became the religion of many nations while Christianity splintered into many sects which constantly fight each other, and almost two-thirds of the human race worships idols. The world is very far from monotheism even to this day.
The Messiah's influence will extend to all who will worship God in the Jerusalem Temple. As the Prophet states, "My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations. This has clearly not taken place yet; therefore, the Messiah hasn't come yet.
A new spirit will fill the world man will no longer sin or commit crimes, especially the Jews (Deutteronomy 30: 6, Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 50:20, and Ezekiel 36:21). Soon after the days of Jesus, ignorance of God, science, and philosophy filled the earth, and the Dark Ages began.
If Jesus was God, why did he pray to and talk to himself?
The true Messiah will reign as King of the Jews. Jesus' career as a wandering preacher and "faith healer" lasted only three years until he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal without any official postition or authority whatsoever.
One of the Messiah's main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day.
Mark 13:30 and Matthew 4 states that the prophecies about the Messiah would take place during Jesus' generation, but nothing was accomplished after 2,000 years.
Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a "second coming". Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus' failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible's prophecies.
The Bible says that the Messiah would be descened from King David. If Jesus is the "Son of God", how could he be descened from King David from his father's side?
Missionaries constantly and deliberatly distort the meaning of the prophets' words in order to substantiate their claims; for example, the Hebrew term in Isaiah , "almah" means "young woman", not "virgin". Honest Christian scholars now admit this is a "pious fraud", and they translate the word correctly in the "Reverse Standard Version" of the Bible.
If Jesus' raising from the dead was so important to demonstrate who he was, why did it take place in secret instead of in the presence of his "thousands' of followers?
Jesus claimed that he didn't intend to change the laws of Moses (Matthew 5), but he later abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate the Sabbath despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can't be abolished or changed.
Judaism believes that God is eternal, above, and beyond time. He can't be born, die, suffer, "become flesh", or be divivded into sections ("Father, Son, and Holy Ghost").
If Jesus was the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that not one of the rabbis of the time accept his claim? Why did all the educated men and prominent men reject him?
If Jesus was the Messiah, why did most of his own people, the Jews of that time, reject him, including his own family? Why did his followers consist almost completely of a handful of poorly educated people?
Jesus ordered his followers to preach to the Jews only, not the Gentiles (Matthew 10), but his followers did the exact opposite. He clearly considered himself the Messiah of the Jews only, but he is accepted by foreign nations, and not the Jews.
The purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all the Jews will observe the Torah and to teach it to all humankind who will accept its truths. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that the Messiah will abolish it. The Torah is eternal.
Nowhere in the Torah does it state that forgivness of a person's sins can be brought about by someone else's death. Each man isaccountable for his own sins, and each man must repent of his own sins by changing his ways and seeking God's forgiveness.
Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give different accounts of Jesus being descended from King David through his father Joseph. Although the New Testament authors claim that Jesus was the "son of David", the manner of his allegedly miraculous "virgin birth" rules out the possibility of a Davidic lineage for him. According to Jewish law, tribal lineage/blood right is passed exclusively by a father to his biological sons and therefore cannot be transmitted in any other manner, including adoption.
Like I said...if you are UNWILLING to find out exactly why the Jews reject Jesus as Messiah...we really have nothing to discuss.
Please stop putting a personal spin on things. This stinks of opinions so strongly it is hard to be around.
Please provide scriptural reference for what you say rather than hoping I can assume your opinions are fact.
Whether you like it or not (and you don't), there is no concrete fact one way or another for either of our stances. That is why faith is involved. I have provided you with scriptural references time and time again and you have responded with nothing but barbed words. I don't know what you are so vindictive about, but it is next to impossible to carry on a conversation with someone who is continually on the attack. Calm down a little and try to DISCUSS this, not ARGUE about it. Do you know the difference between the two?
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