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Please stop putting a personal spin on things. This stinks of opinions so strongly it is hard to be around.
Please provide scriptural reference for what you say rather than hoping I can assume your opinions are fact.
Whether you like it or not (and you don't), there is no concrete fact one way or another for either of our stances. That is why faith is involved. I have provided you with scriptural references time and time again and you have responded with nothing but barbed words. I don't know what you are so vindictive about, but it is next to impossible to carry on a conversation with someone who is continually on the attack. Calm down a little and try to DISCUSS this, not ARGUE about it. Do you know the difference between the two?
Its not in the bible, per say, but it is in the Torah. You know, that thing Jesus kept referring to as "The law" in the new testament.
Heres just one example.
According to Jewish law, the Messiah must be the of the line of David, which is followed by the father. If Jesus in fact had no Jewish father of the house of David, then he was not the Messiah.
DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!
Lots of other contradictions. Read them from a Rabbi. I suggest you read the Torah yourself
I know that the main contradictions are believed by most Christians, as waiting to be fulfilled. Like the gathering of all of Israels children to Israel. (lots of Jews in the states folks), and countless other things that the Messiah is supposed to do, are supposed to happen after Jesus returns. Which is kind of a silly proposition, but again, we are bordering on faith, not scripture.
As I've pointed out, those who truly believe, will not be swayed. Regardless of what was written before Jesus's time, you and others will refuse to buy it, or make excuses for it.
One thing though. Remember, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. The only time he is credited with saying this was when he was before the Jewish courts before his execution. This would have been a CLOSED DOOR trial, and none of Jesus's disciples would have been allowed in.
So if you were trying to have a witch hunt, and wanted to get this pesky carpenters son out of your way, what are you going to say
"No, he isn't the Messiah, but he claims to be" or "Well, he never claimed to be one either"?
They wanted him dead, and the quickest way to do that was to make false charges against him, for something he never said.
For me, and most rational thinking people, All of what Jesus supposedly said after his death is bunk, behind closed doors where there was no witness is bunk. I believe there was a Jesus of Nazareth, and that he was a very smart man, and ahead of his time in thinking. But beyond that, I just don't give the story much weight.
Once you understand the way the Hebrew scripture has been mangled in the NT...you will then be able to understand why the points you brought out were meaningless as pertains to actual Jewish Messiah prophecy. Until you can fully understand why Jesus IS NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH according to Jews (afterall it is their book we are attempting to discuss)...there is really nothing to discuss.
The OT was not written by the Jews...short for Judaism (the 1st organized religion), but rather by the HEBREW prophets who were moved by the Holy Spirit of God. At the time of Jesus...all Jews were Hebrews, but not all Hebrews were Jews...as demonstrated by the Samaritans. John 4:20
Old Testament Prophecies of the coming of The Christ:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name "Immanuel" (to mean God With Us). Jesus is a variation derived from the words Hoshea/Yeshua which mean "Salvation".
Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Psalm 22:16-18 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked (Romans and Jews are they who effected Jesus' crucifixion). They pierced my hands and my feet.
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Quote:
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God".
Psalm 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
These were written thousand of years before it came to fruition!
The OT was not written by the Jews...short for Judaism (the 1st organized religion), but rather by the HEBREW prophets who were moved by the Holy Spirit of God. At the time of Jesus...all Jews were Hebrews, but not all Hebrews were Jews...as demonstrated by the Samaritans. John 4:20
This is one of the stupidest religious arguments I've ever heard.
Moses, was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew, and all of the old testament prophets, were Jews.
Hence the sign "King of the Jews" on Christs cross.
This is one of the stupidest religious arguments I've ever heard.
Moses, was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew, and all of the old testament prophets, were Jews.
I suppose you've never heard of the Torah?
The Torah is the primary document of Judaism. Torah, which means "teaching". It teaches Jews how to act, think and even feel about life and death.
Quote:
The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.
The Torah contains 613 commandments of the Jewish law...
Its not in the bible, per say, but it is in the Torah. You know, that thing Jesus kept referring to as "The law" in the new testament.
Heres just one example.
According to Jewish law, the Messiah must be the of the line of David, which is followed by the father. If Jesus in fact had no Jewish father of the house of David, then he was not the Messiah.
DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!
Lots of other contradictions. Read them from a Rabbi. I suggest you read the Torah yourself
I know that the main contradictions are believed by most Christians, as waiting to be fulfilled. Like the gathering of all of Israels children to Israel. (lots of Jews in the states folks), and countless other things that the Messiah is supposed to do, are supposed to happen after Jesus returns. Which is kind of a silly proposition, but again, we are bordering on faith, not scripture.
As I've pointed out, those who truly believe, will not be swayed. Regardless of what was written before Jesus's time, you and others will refuse to buy it, or make excuses for it.
One thing though. Remember, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. The only time he is credited with saying this was when he was before the Jewish courts before his execution. This would have been a CLOSED DOOR trial, and none of Jesus's disciples would have been allowed in.
So if you were trying to have a witch hunt, and wanted to get this pesky carpenters son out of your way, what are you going to say
"No, he isn't the Messiah, but he claims to be" or "Well, he never claimed to be one either"?
They wanted him dead, and the quickest way to do that was to make false charges against him, for something he never said.
For me, and most rational thinking people, All of what Jesus supposedly said after his death is bunk, behind closed doors where there was no witness is bunk. I believe there was a Jesus of Nazareth, and that he was a very smart man, and ahead of his time in thinking. But beyond that, I just don't give the story much weight.
Jesus's earthly father (Joseph) was in the line of David...
Moderator cut: Orphaned reference
The question isn't whether Jesus was the Messiah or not, the Question is, do Christians have to follow the laws of Moses.
Jesus has said this, by saying that anyone who doesn't follow the law, or tells others they don't have to follow the law will be counted least in Heaven. I guess Paul was disappointed when he got there.
No amount of arguing is going to convince you that Jesus isn't the Messiah, and I'm not trying to make you think that. The contradictions are there, and plain to see. Any religion thats 2000 years old is going to have contradictions, which makes it silly to say that the bible is the "word of God" when its changed and contradicts itself. I guess God has multiple personality disorder.
The fact is, the bible says you are supposed to kill non believers. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about that. You can dismiss this by saying "Jesus fulfilled the law" but as I pointed out, he didn't fulfill the Torah, and told believers many times to follow the rules in the Torah.
Concerning the OP, and the Idea that Christians could be seen as being evil because of certain parts of the bible just like Muslims are considered evil because of parts of the quaran ... What about the Hebrew people, or judaism? They don't even believe that Christ fulfilled the law or that he in truth brought a new covenant. Son the arguments of the new covenant and the fulfillment of the law in Christ does certainly not count for Jews ...
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