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I don't understand your argument with me...I never said anything contrary to what you are saying in regards to Paul, Adam or Christ....I agree with it all..Adam is the first to have recieved a living soul. Through Christ, WE, are given a life giving spirit. I believe it is how you and I are defining "creature" in lieu of scriptural authority. You say it is all mankind, whether saved or not...I say it is those in covenant, whether saved or not. Paul is talking about Israel, the creature, through Adam, hewn into Christ. You put Adam as the first biological man. I do not. That is our disagreeement. I put Adam as the FIRST MAN brought INTO relationship with God, and the promise is revealed to Him, Eve, the war with Satan, and all because of HIS transgression, because HE is the federal head and evangelical for all to enter into the awaited consummation of the coming Christ. This revelatory vision and lineage revealed through Abraham, descendant of Adam, the promise is given through faith. Yet!...the Israelites were a "stiffnecked" bunch, and needed law..they needed law to reveal their sins, because they were stubborn, yet they were chosen, the covenant people, whether righteous or not. A strict literal reading of the text pits Adam roughly 4000 years before Christ. Mankind walked the earth over 100K years ago.....modern human beings Eusebius. Adam son's practiced farming, herding, all respective of the early bronze age.
I don't believe humans walked the earth 100 thousand years ago. The Bible says Adam was the first human. It doesn't say anything that Adam was the first human to have a covenantal relationship with God and that there were others before him. Adam was not the first to receive a living soul. The animals came before Adam and they had/have souls. I realize many translations cover this fact up but here it is:
Gen 1:20 -21 CLV "And saying is the Elohim, "Roam shall the water with the roaming, living soul, and the flyer shall fly over the earth on the face of the atmosphere of the heavens." And coming is it to be so.
(21) "And creating is the Elohim great monsters and every living moving soul, with which the water roams, for their kind, and every winged flyer for its kind. And seeing is the Elohim that it is good. (22) And blessing them is the Elohim, saying, "Be fruitful and increase and fill the water of the seas. And the flyer is to be increasing in the earth."
Gen 1:24 And saying is the Elohim, "Bring forth shall the earth the living soul for its kind, beast and moving animal and land life for its kind. And coming is it to be so."
Many translations just say "living *creature*.
Next, you say that "creature" is just those in a covenant relationship with Christ. Again, this is incorrect. Paul never says that. In Colossians 1:21 it says that we believers are reconciled NOW. Colossians 1:20 shows the rest of all in the universe reconciled in the future.
In Romans 8:21 Paul shows the whole creation in slavery to corruption and that the entire creation is going to be freed into the same freedom we children of God have. So you theory cannot hold water.
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God is not a deceiver my friend. The Bible does not support Adam as the first biological man that walked the earth. Yet it does support that he is not.
Of course the Bible says Adam is the first human and that all mankind came from him. Look at Romans 5:12, 18,19. We are all connected to our first father Adam.
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The covenantal laws of sin and death were fulfilled for those like Adam, who enter into covenant with God. UR doesn't fit.
The Bible isn't about those who wil never come into covenant. They aren't part of salvation or atonements. They do no accept the propitation, Christ Jesus.
It is all about the blessings of that covenant, and those who enter into it. In covenant with Christ, you are saved.
Of course the Bible is concerning ALL mankind, not just the believer. Look at 1 Timothy 4:10. God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not just) them that believe.
I think you are pressing the things that are for the future eons of those who believe and making that mandatory for all mankind after the eons have ended. That is not correct.
Next, you say that "creature" is just those in a covenant relationship with Christ. Again, this is incorrect. Paul never says that. In Colossians 1:21 it says that we believers are reconciled NOW. Colossians 1:20 shows the rest of all in the universe reconciled in the future.
We believers, are those in covenant. Those who believe in the future, are those in covenant.
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In Romans 8:21 Paul shows the whole creation in slavery to corruption and that the entire creation is going to be freed into the same freedom we children of God have.
Romans 8 is not talking about material things, but of man. Read it again.
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Of course the Bible says Adam is the first human and that all mankind came from him.
No it doesn't.
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Look at Romans 5:12, 18,19. We are all connected to our first father Adam.
We...all Israel....Jew in Gentile...in covenant.
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Of course the Bible is concerning ALL mankind, not just the believer. Look at 1 Timothy 4:10. God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not just) them that believe.
Once man has accepted the propitation, then yes, he is saved. This verse is referring to God in particular and not necessarily Jesus in particular. Does the title "God" include Jesus? Of course, since Jesus is God in flesh Col. 2:9, the Savior. God, who is a Trinity, is called Savior in Psalm 106:21; Isaiah 43:3; Luke 1:47; 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; Titus 1:3-4; and Titus 2:10. It is obvious that the term refers to God in the generic sense of being the Savior of all men since He brings salvation to all through His Son Jesus Christ and, him being the propitation. The propitiation does not procure His love or make Him loving; rather, it renders it consistent for Him to exercise His love towards sinners buy their acceptance of that very propitation in belief and faith. This is why it says that God (not Jesus) is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. How is it especially to believers? Simple. It is especially realized only by those who are believers and put their faith in the propitation of God, who is Jesus Christ. Christians confuse propitiation and atonement, however these are not the same. Christ is not our Atonement, He is our Propitiation, and there is a world of difference. We can never fully make our atonement, because we cannot ever repay God for our sins, national or personal or in some fairy tale Lake of Fire purging. Yet under the New Covenant our reconciliation with God is effected upon our acceptance of the propitiation of Christ, but it was not done on the cross... He can be a propitiation for us, but He cannot make amends for us... our conciliation is achieved by our acceptance of His propitiation, if indeed He accepts us!
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Concerning the Garden and the Covenant of Works. Scripture refers to it as simply the covenant.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.............
Alabama,
I want to expand a little on this so don't mind please if I ask too many questions....The New Covenant? When was it established?
Yet, doesn't it in some sense need to be established again with each person in every generation?
For example, the Lutherans and Reformed "baptized" infants to show they are members of the covenant. Thirteen years later, those same infants go through confirmation. These infants were already members of the covenant, but, at some point, they must take responsibility for their own relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. The children must establish anew, the relationship they inherited.
Let me expand Biblically....in Deuteronomy, God says He will establish a covenant with the people because their fathers 40 years earlier refused to do so. Does this imply that there was no covenant at Sinai? Elsewhere, in Deuteronomy, they are told they are part of the covenant the patriarchs are in. Were they in two covenants? In Kings and in Ezra, there is talk of establishing a covenant. Are the former covenants null and void? Or did each person in each generation need to take personal responsibility for his part in the one Old Covenant that extends back to Genesis 1 and 2...the Covenant in the Garden, where Adam is giving a strict set of laws......you see my friend, the covenant in the garden is precisely what Christ redeemed...it is by Him, the propitation, we are atoned for by our belief.
I want to expand a little on this so don't mind please if I ask too many questions....The New Covenant? When was it established?
Yet, doesn't it in some sense need to be established again with each person in every generation?
For example, the Lutherans and Reformed "baptized" infants to show they are members of the covenant. Thirteen years later, those same infants go through confirmation. These infants were already members of the covenant, but, at some point, they must take responsibility for their own relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. The children must establish anew, the relationship they inherited.
Let me expand Biblically....in Deuteronomy, God says He will establish a covenant with the people because their fathers 40 years earlier refused to do so. Does this imply that there was no covenant at Sinai? Elsewhere, in Deuteronomy, they are told they are part of the covenant the patriarchs are in. Were they in two covenants? In Kings and in Ezra, there is talk of establishing a covenant. Are the former covenants null and void? Or did each person in each generation need to take personal responsibility for his part in the one Old Covenant that extends back to Genesis 1 and 2...the Covenant in the Garden, where Adam is giving a strict set of laws......you see my friend, the covenant in the garden is precisely what Christ redeemed...it is by Him, the propitation, we are atoned for by our belief.
Where in the world does this leave all the North Koreans??!!
Where in the world does this leave all the North Koreans??!!
Well I am sure there are some North Korean Christians here, and I am sure, although quite silent about their faith, due to political strife, there are many in North Korea.
Maybe look some up...ask them. I am sure they will give you the right answer.....as many have with here with you UR folks many times over.
Please don't put their preserverance and saintly endurance under extreme conditions to shame with talk of Universal Reconciliation to those outside of covenant.
It just doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.....anywhere.
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I am sure they will give you the right answer.....as many have with here with you UR folks many times over.
