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Unborn babies just might live in amniotic sacks, known as a bag of water.
Matter of fact, they not only live in it throughout the entire process, but breathe it as well.
Perhaps, you should try telling this lie to a pregnant woman when her "water" breaks!
Let's reverse the order, then you might get it: "Born of the womb, water; born of the Spirit, after death."
Born again carries the connotation of being born anew, but it appears that many have not died to self.
Jerwade, I agree
Even the context of John 3:5 says that Nichodemus is mistakenly referring to another physical birth and Jesus explains to him that there is a 1st birth = physical = water and a second birth which is spiritual.
John 3:5 in context
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Because of two statements made in posts #4 and #5 of the following thread; Why does being "born again" bring out the worst in people?, I decided to address in a new thread what John 3:5 and being born of water and of the Spirit mean.
Both of the following statements are inaccurate and reflect a lack of understanding of what it means to be born again. For privacy reasons I have removed the names of the posters from their statements.
From post #4:
Being born of water does not refer to physical birth. Nor does it refer to water baptism. It is a reference to the gospel. In John 3:5 Jesus was talking to Nicodemus who was a Pharisee. 'Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'' Because Jesus was speaking to a Pharisee He used terms that would be meaningful to a Pharisee.
To a Pharisee water had the following spiritual connotations.
1] Water could mean salvation:
Isa 55:1''Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.''
John 4:14''but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
2] Water could refer to the water of the word:
Eph 5:26'that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.'
3] Water could mean the water of the Holy Spirit:
John 7:38 ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Being born of the Spirit has to do with regeneration - being born again. This occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.
Titus 3:5 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.'
1 Peter 1:23 'for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God.'
From post #5:
As does the first poster, the poster above thinks that you have to die physically before you can be born again. He wrongly thinks that Jesus had to be born again.
The reason a man must be born again is because at the moment of physical birth he is born spiritually dead. He must be born again spiritually in order to receive eternal life.
John 3:5 'Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water [the gospel] and the Spirit [regeneration from the source of God the Holy Spirit], he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6] ''That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit [God the Holy Spirit] is spirit [the human spirit].
At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed. The human spirit is a home to which God the Father makes a real imputation of His very own eternal life.
When one is 'saved,' he has been born again, spiritually regenerated, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be 'born again' spiritually. ''Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.'' 2 Cor 5:17.
A person is born again - spiritually regenerated - the recipient of eternal life, at the very moment he places his faith in Christ in response to the gospel message.
Your post is very Scriptural and those who do not understand the spiritual things will not, even with Scripture, for they are Spiritually discerned.
But there is one point that I believe needs clarifying: to be born of the Spirit of regeneration is to be adopted into the One Living Spirit/Christ. We are adopted into that Spirit when we "receive Christ" which is the Good News of Salvation, in that, in Adam all die; and Adam is one spirit, with each soul born in Adam having their own remnant of that one Adam dead -as son of God- spirit, since the fall [Malachi 2:15].
Christ is one Spirit, and we each are generated anew into that One Living Spirit when we receive Christ, and that is the birth from above, and is also called the "adoption".
Being adopted in Spirit, we wait for the adoption bodies of New Man flesh, regenerated [metamorphosed] from our old man Adam elements into the image of the New Man [who is Christ come in flesh of second creation human being flesh], and we wait while yet in our old dead Adam nature, which we reckon dead and "die daily to its manner", by "taking up the cross" on which we consider our old man nature crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and risen with Christ -by faith.
“We are the creation born from above, but man has exalted himself.â€
All will come to the full knowledge of the truth in due time, as the creation groans to be set free from the captivity of men who have become wicked, following their own creations, not the Spirit of truth.
Jesus said, "Come follow me." He did not say,"“How they worship their gods, so shall we?" Because in worshiping their gods, they contrive all kinds of detestable things.
Cross Reference:
Leviticus 18:21
Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God.
Deuteronomy 9:4
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness."
No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations (people) that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
Deuteronomy 12:30
And after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same."
Not all traditions are true, but the Holy Spirit will lead you in ALL TRUTH if you die to your self-righteousness; ruling out the possibility that you are what has, gone the wrong way.
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness."
No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations (people) that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.Deut 9:4
This is an interesting scripture (well to me it is). God brings us to the land(Christ), to drive out the wicked nations (our thoughts and our ways). Yes God brought us there, yet we still insist we got ourselves there.
There is to be added Christ as that "Living Word" typed as the River of Life, that is also typed in the Word as streams of living fire, and the " river of Life", representing the Living Spirit, Christ.
Fire and Water both define the River, which is the Living Spirit/Christ, and the Word.
We must be born of the Living Word, as the germination within us of that One Living Spirit, which is the Water of Life.
Where is this Scripture written that Jesus, the Christ in flesh, speaks of: Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture/writing [as in "sacred"] hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. -?
In Ezekiel 47 we see the River of Life which represents/types Christ the Living Spirit, after four thousand cubits [representing thousand years each cubit in this parable], the river is so wide and deep that a man cannot cross over, meaning, parabolically, that after Christ was come in flesh [and atoned for sin] many were joined to that Living Water/Spirit, and it was so deep and wide it could not be crossed over.
Quote:
Ezekiel 47
The River From the Temple
1 The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.
2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was trickling from the south side.
3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and then led me through water that was ankle-deep.
4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee-deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist.
5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross.
6 He asked me, “Son of man, do you see/ understand/have you considered this?”
Then he led me back to the bank of the river.
7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river.
8 He said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Dead Sea.
When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh.
9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live.
10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets.
The fish will be of many kinds—like the fish of the Mediterranean Sea. 11 But the swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt.
12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.”
We see the same Living Spirit typed as the River of Life, in Revelation : Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?
Enoch saw the Word coming from beneath the throne in heaven "as streams of Fire":
Quote:
The Vision of the Great Glory Enoch chapter 14
15And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. 16And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to you its splendour and its extent. 17And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
18And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of cherubim.
19And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look thereon.
20And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and was whiter than any snow.
21None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason of the magnificence and glory, and no flesh could behold Him.
22The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him, yet He needed no counsellor.
23And the most holy ones who were nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him.
Being 'born again' has nothing to do with what you feel, or what you experience. A person is born again the very moment he believes in Christ. The phrase 'born again' is simply another way of saying that you are eternally saved - that you have been regenerated. I have already explained in post #1 what regeneration is.
Yes, being born again is the very moment of salvation when a person surrenders his/her life to Christ. Maturing in faith, spiritual gifts and other things will follow, but being born again is the moment of salvation.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-09-2011 at 01:11 PM..
Being 'born again' has nothing to do with what you feel, or what you experience. A person is born again the very moment he believes in Christ. The phrase 'born again' is simply another way of saying that you are eternally saved - that you have been regenerated. I have already explained in post #1 what regeneration is.
Mike
You explained nothing in post #1, that verifies when a person believes, he's born again. None of the scriptures you quoted come nowhere near suggesting this to be true.
We are not born by choice,infact it's ludicrous to suggest that we are.
Conception occurs before birth, in the natural this usually takes around 9 months.If you don't understand natural things how are you ever going to discern spiritual things ?.
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things.John 3:12
While I strongly disagree with Mike on his teachings of OSAS, he is, however, on the right track with regard to the meaning of being born of water; it means to be born of the water of the Word, not by water baptism nor water at birth.
Ephesians 5
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish
It's by being born of Jesus' Spirit and by the Word of God that sets the captives free from the devil's bondage. Water baptism can't wash away sin, only the blood of the Lamb can do that. Water baptism represents what has already happened: the old man/woman has died, and the new creature in Christ has been resurrected to life.
I generally agree with your comments on water symbolically representing the word of 'god'. I, too, think that is how “water” is being used in John 3:5.
Probably the best spiritual picture we have of being "born of water" is found here:
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Those scriptures give a very good illustration of spiritual regeneration. The act of God whereby He removes us from our captivity (the flesh), and placing a new heart and a new spirit within us. No mention of faith here on the captives part. Simply God's work of Grace upon those He makes born of the Spirit. Pure monergism by the Spirit of Christ.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God.
The next two verses (above) tell us what happens after being regenerated, after having a new heart and spirit placed within us. We are then made willing and able to hear the Gospel and receive the Spirit of Christ through faith.
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
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