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...If interactions and debates on the forum teach us anything, it’s that we all derive different meaning from the scriptures. We all read; and then we interpret; and then we develop systems of belief that we teach.
, you need to be given 1,000 reps for that...lol. The scriptures are like a mirror, through which we see our own reflections of Christ within us.
2Co 3:18 But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord Spirit.
Eventually, I believe one day that all will see the glory of Christ in their reflection.
None of the Church fathers questioned what John meant in that passage
The Didache
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).
Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
In the saving sacraments, when necessity compels and when God bestows his pardon, divine benefits are bestowed fully upon believers, nor ought anyone be disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord's grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69(76):12 [A.D. 254]).
Ambrose
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine [LEFT]It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
[/LEFT]
The plan of salvation has become the most altered subject within Christianity.Satan, atheists, unblievers and poorly taught Christians contribute to the problem hindering the progress of God's divine plan.
Jesus said, in John 16:8 that The Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin.But how ? Paul answers this in 2Thess. 2:13-14. the Spirit will cause people to be convicted of sin as thy believe in the gospel. Jesus prayed in John 17:20 that people will believe in Him through their message. This clearly implies that salvation is not in the gospels as many claim. How do we know? In Hebrews 9:15 Christ ushered in the new covenant with His death or His shed blood. The writer concludes a "will" is not in force until the death of the one who made it. Salvation then is impossible in the gospels.
Jesus also told Nicodemus in John 3:5 that unless a person is "born of water and Spirit," they cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
What's the design of the 'New birth?' two elements- water and Spirit. Why two? Because there are two aspects of man, the inner man and the outer man. The inner man has an intellect, emotions, a will and a conscience. The Spirits work is to reach each of these areas. To simply 'believe,' as so many claim for salvation, is to only touch the intellect. The demons believe ,but are lost. The intellect 'stirs' the emotions, the conscience sense's guilt and the will inqauires 'what must I do to be forgiven?
The will responds to the gospel message and say 'yes' to the command to be born of water and the Spirit in Christian baptism to 'cleans' the guilty conscience. 1Peter 3:21
A sinner is 'dead' in sin even though he or she is alive Eph. 2:1 This is why everyone needs to be 'born-again. After the Spirit has done His work, what do we do with a 'dead' body , the outer man? We bury it in the water. Why? to complete Jesus command to enter His Kingdom. Paul tells us that we are buried , united and clothed with Christ in baptism which completes being 'born again. Romans 6:3-7 Gal3:27
To completely settle the controversy, Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 My blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins. " On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is speaking through Peter and he declares " baptism is for the forgiveness of sins." WHO LIED - Jesus , the Holy Spirit or your preacher or are they both saying the same thing ?
Remember what Paul said ? "If anyone preaches any other gospel than what the Apostles preached, they are to be eternally condemned."Gal 1:9
So the devil deceives people by stating they are saved by 'grace alone,'by 'faith alone' or by the sinners prayer keeping the whole truth from being preached, by saying 'baptism has nothing to do with salvation. .
He sounds so good and comforting until we study what God says in His word.
Printed by permission of James Harvey , preacher .
None of the Church fathers questioned what John meant in that passage
The Didache
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]). Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]). Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]). Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]). Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]). Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]). Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]). Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
In the saving sacraments, when necessity compels and when God bestows his pardon, divine benefits are bestowed fully upon believers, nor ought anyone be disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord's grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69(76):12 [A.D. 254]). Ambrose
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]). Augustine [LEFT]It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
[/LEFT]
Thank you for posting this. The early church fathers clearly believed in baptism for the remission of sins, and its necessity for entrance into the Kingdom.
The "faith alone" doctrine is a modern view in terms of Christianity (abt. 1520). It is a false doctrine.
The plan of salvation has become the most altered subject within Christianity.Satan, atheists, unblievers and poorly taught Christians contribute to the problem hindering the progress of God's divine plan.
Jesus said, in John 16:8 that The Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin.But how ? Paul answers this in 2Thess. 2:13-14. the Spirit will cause people to be convicted of sin as thy believe in the gospel. Jesus prayed in John 17:20 that people will believe in Him through their message. This clearly implies that salvation is not in the gospels as many claim. How do we know? In Hebrews 9:15 Christ ushered in the new covenant with His death or His shed blood. The writer concludes a "will" is not in force until the death of the one who made it. Salvation then is impossible in the gospels.
Jesus also told Nicodemus in John 3:5 that unless a person is "born of water and Spirit," they cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
What's the design of the 'New birth?' two elements- water and Spirit. Why two? Because there are two aspects of man, the inner man and the outer man. The inner man has an intellect, emotions, a will and a conscience. The Spirits work is to reach each of these areas. To simply 'believe,' as so many claim for salvation, is to only touch the intellect. The demons believe ,but are lost. The intellect 'stirs' the emotions, the conscience sense's guilt and the will inqauires 'what must I do to be forgiven?
The will responds to the gospel message and say 'yes' to the command to be born of water and the Spirit in Christian baptism to 'cleans' the guilty conscience. 1Peter 3:21
A sinner is 'dead' in sin even though he or she is alive Eph. 2:1 This is why everyone needs to be 'born-again. After the Spirit has done His work, what do we do with a 'dead' body , the outer man? We bury it in the water. Why? to complete Jesus command to enter His Kingdom. Paul tells us that we are buried , united and clothed with Christ in baptism which completes being 'born again. Romans 6:3-7 Gal3:27
To completely settle the controversy, Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 My blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins. " On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is speaking through Peter and he declares " baptism is for the forgiveness of sins." WHO LIED - Jesus , the Holy Spirit or your preacher or are they both saying the same thing ?
Remember what Paul said ? "If anyone preaches any other gospel than what the Apostles preached, they are to be eternally condemned."Gal 1:9
So the devil deceives people by stating they are saved by 'grace alone,'by 'faith alone' or by the sinners prayer keeping the whole truth from being preached, by saying 'baptism has nothing to do with salvation. .
He sounds so good and comforting until we study what God says in His word.
Printed by permission of James Harvey , preacher .
God Bless
DXCC
God Bless James Harvey. He speaks the truth!
Katie
None of the Church fathers questioned what John meant in that passage
I don't think it's a matter of "questioning" what John meant, but rather knowing and understanding what he meant.
Out of curiosity, why would you give greater weight to what a particular "Church Father" believed then what John himself believed? Would it not be better to know what John the Baptist himself believed concerning baptism? After all, John was a prophet, endorsed by Christ, right?
Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
Mat 11:8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses.
Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Can you point to one of your "Church Fathers" that was endorsed by Jesus, like John was?
If we're going to appeal to the words of men (such as Church Fathers and historians), shouldn't we at least appeal to Josephus (a Jewish historian that was born within 5 years of John's death) who tells us what John the Baptist believed concerning the phrase "remission of sins", quoted here in part?:
...for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.
Those are Josephus' words concerning what John believed about baptism. Are you saying Josephus lied about what John believed?
To completely settle the controversy, Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 My blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins. " On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is speaking through Peter and he declares " baptism is for the forgiveness of sins." WHO LIED - Jesus , the Holy Spirit or your preacher or are they both saying the same thing ?
Actually, no one lied. Jesus was the lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
For instance. Jesus tells us He forgave sinners their sins prior to His death on the cross:
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Surprisingly (for some), the word "be forgiven", translated from the Greek word ἀφίημιs, is being used in the Greek perfect tense. In other words, his sins were already forgiven (English past tense), before Jesus legally died on the cross for them.
And, all through the OT scriptures, Jesus (as God) forgave sins. Read what David said:
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Like believers today, the OT believers knew their sins were forgiven by Messiah, they too believed the Gospel (Isa 53:5).
The death of Christ placed a legal marker in time, once and for all, for (or because of) the forgiveness of sins, not necessarily when those sins were forgiven.
I believe that the poster who point out that the ordinance of baptism was performed in water are certainly correct.
Regarding Mike555's claim that the earlier texts I gave in post #80 are heretical (the ones that disagree with his theory). Yes, biblical texts are important to any Christians of later centuries who happened to have a portion of a sacred text. However, to view how the earliest Christians THEMSELVES interpreted what they had is still incredibly important. Some of these people were taught by the apostles themselves and thus I do not believe that to simply dismiss their views as “heretical” is valid.
Hermas and Barnabas ARE in the early New Testament (Sinaiticus). Are we to simply claim that the early New Testament (and any other New Testaments related to the Codex sinaiticus New Testament) are heretical because the early Christian New Testament had texts the roman version did not. Enoch also, remains firmly INSIDE the eastern canon. Are we to say the eastern Christian bible is heretical, but ours is not? This arbitrary labeling of orthodoxy to mean “what I personally believe to be true” or “My personal interpretation of text based on my personal (and limited) knowledge” needs to stop.
Additionally, this arbitrary creation of “doctrine by improvisation” does not create doctrines that elevate and enlighten, but instead, the creation of such new doctrines tend to obscure very simple early truths. This creation of new and different Christian doctrines by individuals is partly why I posted before on this same issue of whether baptism was performed in water. It is very, very, clear that the ancient Judao-Christians DID baptize in water AND it is clear that they understood that the water ITSELF was NOT the medium of the change in heart that occurred in those who believed.
Quote:
Lately there have been a few threads discussing Christian Baptism. One of the theories mentioned in a thread that baptism was not performed in water. I simply wanted to give some data from the early christian texts that show that Baptism was part of authentic Ancient Christianity and also that the earliest Judao-christians understood that authentic baptism was done in WATER.
Barnabas reminds us that the original baptism and it’s symbolism would not be left intact, but that it’s original intent and mode would be changed and substitutes would be created. For example, regarding Israel, he both asks and prophesies this change in baptism :
Quote:
“But let us inquire whether the Lord took care to foreshadow the water and the cross. Now concerning the water, it is written with reference to Israel that they would never accept the baptism that brings forgiveness of sins, but would create a substitute for themselves. (Barnabas 11:1)
Though there are probably dozens of modern substitute theories and substitute interpretations and re-interpretations regarding the original and authentic “baptism by water”, however, I think the poster Twin-spin is correct in the specific assumption that ‘baptism by water” means what is says. At least it meant that to the earliest Judao-christians as they tell us in their own texts :
In the earliest Christianity, once the convert developed faith in jesus, the early convert, as part of their commitment to Christ and process of repentance, would be physically baptized in water as New Testament Barnabas points out :
Quote:
“... blessed are those who, having set their hope on the cross, descended into the water, because he speaks of the reward “in it’s season” (The Epistle of Barnabas 11:8)
The very early Christian Didache (written at the same period John is writing the apocalypse) describes the early and authentic context of Christian Baptism :
Quote:
“Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, .baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” in running water”. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. (Didache 7:1)
It is clear in the early christian Didache, that it is physical water that is being spoken of here.
To say that the WATER itself was not symbolic did NOT mean that there wasn’t deep symbolism involved in the ordinance of baptism by water. For example, the early christian didache obviously describes baptizing in real water, yet the ordinance of baptism symbolized the start of an actual process of moral cleansing that was occurring in the life of the early christian convert as it was associated with repentance.
This simple and clear doctrine is referred to by such questions as that asked by New Testament Hermas who asked the angel :
Quote:
“Sir,” I said, “I have heard from certain teachers that there is no other repentance beyond that which occurred when we descended into the water and received forgiveness of our previous sins.” (Hermas 3:67)
New Testament Barnabas also refers to this same principle when explaining :
Quote:
“By this he means that while we descend into the water laden with sins and dirt, we rise up bearing fruit in our heart and with fear and hope in Jesus in our spirits.” (The Epistle of Barnabas 11:11)
The early Qumran Baptismal Liturgy has similar themes running through the text :
Quote:
“For you made me…Your will is that we cleanse ourselves before…to be in righteous purity and he shall bathe in water and sprinkle upon …And then they return from the water…cleansing His people in the waters of bathing…” etc. The liturgy instructs the priest as to what to ask the initiate and what he is to say in response.
Quote:
“And he shall say in response, “Blessed are You…Your purification in Your glory…” (A BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414)
Such structure to this central ordinance indicates that it was an integral ordinance in authentic early christianity. It was a sign of their belief and commitment. New Testament Hermas taught :
Quote:
“For before a man,” he said, “bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead, but when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness and receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water; so they go down into the water dead and they come up alive. Thus this seal was proclaimed to them as well, and they made use of it in order that they might enter the kingdom of God.” Hermas - The Shepherd (93: 1-7)
The ordinance of baptism, was, in the earliest Christianity, a seal and symbol received AFTER faith in Christ and commitment to live in obedience to gospel principles. Thus Annaias tells us :
Quote:
“I, Annaias, an officer of the guard, being learned in the law, came to know our Lord Jesus Christ form the sacred scriptures, which I approached with faith and was accounted worthy of holy baptism.” (The Gospel of Nicodemus - Prologue)
Annaias was accounted worthy because, as a catechchumen (a new convert) he had faith; had committed to be obedient to Christian principles, and had entered into the lifelong process of repentance expected of Christians. An early Prayer in behalf of catechumens read thusly :
Quote:
“1 Let us all earnestly entreat God on behalf of the catechumens: v4 that he may reveal to them the gospel of his Christ, 5 illume them, and give them understanding, educate them in the knowledge of god 6 teach them his ordinances and judgments...7 and that he may establish them in piety, unify and number them among his holy flock, 8 grant them (the) washing of regeneration, the garment of incorruption, (and) real life:...10...and that he may cleanse them from all pollution of flesh and spirit, and dwell in them...12...obtaining remission of their trespasses through initiation, (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers #10 A prayer on behalf of the catechumens - AposCon .5-8)
Early Christians did not have a “magical religion” where individuals suddenly became morally or socially “perfect” because of ANY ordinance, but rather, there were authentic requirements within the heart that were to be fulfilled, without which, NO ordinance by itself could bestow moral righteousness. Of the hypocrite, the Qumran charter said :
Quote:
“Ceremonies of atonement cannot restore his innocence, neither cultic waters his purity. He cannot be sanctified by baptism in oceans and rivers, nor purified by mere ritual bathing. Unclean, unclean shall he be all the days that he rejects the laws of God, refusing to be disciplined in the Yahad of His society. For only through the spirit pervading God’s true society can there be atonement for a man’s ways, all of his iniquities; thus only can he gaze upon the light of life and so be joined to his truth by his Holy Spirit, purified from all iniquity. Through an upright and humble attitude his sin may be covered, and by humbling himself before all God’s laws his flesh can be made clean. Only thus can he really receive the purifying waters and be purged by the cleansing flow. (CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col. 3)
It was not merely inappropriate for hypocrites and counterfeits to try to “fake” christianity; there were warnings against attempts to abuse such ordinances.
Quote:
“If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything and says, “I am a Christian,” he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded.” (The gospel of Phillip)
However, those who had acquired authentic faith; had made the authentic commitment to repent and to be obedient to Christian principles, were entering into a process of becoming born again as new creatures and of moral progression of which repentance and forgiveness was an early and integral part
Quote:
“So, since he renewed us by the forgiveness of sins, he made us men of another type, so that we should have the soul of children, as if he were creating us all over again. (The Epistle of Barnabas 6:11)
Though this gradual process of change was likened unto several processes, all authentic processes involved baptism.
Quote:
“God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water.” (The gospel of Phillip)
My key point is to make clear that Baptism, in the earliest christianity was done in water and was an ordinance integral to early Christianity.
Alabama Storm in post #96 quoted Joseph' description of the Judao-Christian Baptism
Quote:
...for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.
Josephus was describing the PROCESS of which baptism in water was only a PART. Repentance was integral to this process in ancient Christian doctrine.
clear
eitznetzzz
Last edited by Clear lens; 04-16-2011 at 02:07 PM..
AlabamaStorm :
Your posts are wonderful as well. I appreciate your logic and civility and insight as well. For example :
AlabamaStorm wrote in post #91 "... scriptures are like a mirror, through which we see our own reflections of Christ within us..."
I not only agree with you, but I think your observation is profound and underlies a great number of important interactions within theists of all persuasions.
I have often thought that the gospel is strained through our limited understanding; but that understanding is then changed by our interpretations (which are affected to some extent by our biases), and applied by and through our personalities (with all of the idiosyncracies we all have). It's no wonder that the various and conflicting doctrines that come out the other end of this process is so different between different christians.
For example, Luther's personal bias affected his translation, sometimes profoundly. (And his translation of the scriptures, seen as the "god-breathed gospel" by some of it's readers, affected their beliefs of what the gospel was...).
For example, in Luther's first edition of Old and New Testaments, he purposefully left out the second commandment from the 10 (the one forbidding the making of graven images). It was, in his interpretation, obvious, that this specific commandment applied only to the jews (since Luther had "grown up" WITH graven images..) He therefore interpreted the second commandment as a "judisches sachenspiegel" (specific case law - my translation) that applied to the Jews only. Thus, the ten commandments were different between Catholic and Protestant Europe for a time...)
Luther is also the translator that added the word "alone" / "allein" to "durch den Glauben" in romans 3:28 so as to help support (create...) his doctrine so as to help support his belief that it is "alone through faith" ("allein durch den glauben").
What is true of Luther is true of all translators (you know this since you have some background in textual criticism). The bibles we read are creations of the translators as much as they are of the scribes; as much as they are of the early collators and copyists; as much as they are of the scribe to the apostle or other original writer (whoever that might have been).
Our Text is profoundly changed by the nature of personality in other ways as well. for example : If Erasmus and Froben had been less interested in being "THE FIRST" to print a Greek Bible (they were racing against Cardinal Ximines and his polyglot to get "the FIRST printed greek bible" to the printer), and more interested in simply having a GOOD, and CORRECT, bible based on the BEST early Greek texts, it would have changed the face of all bibles based on a better "textus receptus".
However, one erasmus created his bible, and once his bible became popular, it then created an arbitrary "standard" that is very, very, difficult to correct.
My point in all this is that the same personal idiosyncracies that happened on a large scale by influencial people that "created" a version of a "christian gospel", also happen on a smaller scale by individual posters who "create" a version of a "christian gospel".
The amazing spectrum of Christian claims and resulting confusion was one of the principles motivating me to try to learn about and understand what the earliest Christianity was like from the descriptions of the earliest texts available. I hope that I can keep the early texts and doctrines as clear as possible so as to make the point that later Christian theories and doctrines are NOT any better than the earliest doctrines held by the earliest Judao-Christians.
Clear
eieitwfumn
Last edited by Clear lens; 04-16-2011 at 04:00 PM..
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, you need to be given 1,000 reps for that...lol. The scriptures are like a mirror, through which we see our own reflections of Christ within us.
