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Yes, it is important what the bible teaches. However I might remind you that you responded to the critics of your theory by offering “five different studies” , rather than the bible. IF the authors of your study used the bible to support their theories, so did the ancient Judao-Christians whom, as I’ve showed, believed quite differently.
I don't deal in theory. And as I've told you twice now, those in the early church had many different beliefs. And there were many heresies then as now.
The Bible does not teach the pre-existence of the soul or of the human spirit. But that belief can be found in Rabbinical literature and in Platonic teachings.
Origen apparently believed in the pre-existence of souls but seems to have gotten that from the teachings of Plato.
In Judaism, one of the beliefs is of the pre-existence of the soul. In the Apocryphal book of 'The Wisdom of Solomon' 8:19-20, pre-existence is mentioned.
Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 ''As a child I was born to excellence, and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body.''
This contradicts Zech 12:1 'The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declared the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Some might say that Clement of Alexandria (c. 155-220) believed in the pre-existence of souls because of the following statement.
''But before the foundation of the world were we, who, because destined to be in Him, pre-existed in the eye of God before, -- we the rational creatures of the Word of God, on whose account we date from the beginning; for "in the beginning was the word.''
But Clement carefully qualifies his statement that we existed in the beginning with the words ''in the eye of God,'' which means that our ''preexistence'' was as an idea in God's mind, not that we actually existed.
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If interactions and debates on the forum teach us anything, it’s that we all derive different meaning from the scriptures. We all read; and then we interpret; and then we develop systems of belief that we teach.
You described your personal theory : “At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed.”
No clearlens, I did not describe my personal theory. I presented a Biblical doctrine which you reject.
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I described the ancient Judao-Christian theory : “All individuals have a human spirits in them from birth.”
The doctrine the earliest Judao-Christians believed in are not merely described in ancient biblical books such as enoch and ecclesiastes, Barnabas; hermas, etc, but also from the earliest Christian apocalypses; from the earliest Christian hymns; from mishnic materials and early Christian commentaries; from the earliest Christian sermons; from their novels and romance literature; from their earliest testaments; their wisdom literature and even earliest Christian diaries. For you to simply dismiss incredibly large amounts of profound historical material that disagrees with your personal theory as “heresy” is to allow a very small personal tail to wag an unimaginably large dog. To do so is a complete perversion of historical principles.
No again, clearlens. Some people in the early church held that belief. Not the early church as a whole as you would have people believe. The issue is what the Bible teaches. Not what those in the early church, or the church today for that matter, thinks it teaches.
The only thing which matters is what the Bible teaches. Not what the Apocryphal books or Pseudepigraphal books say. Those are literature only. They carrry no divine authority.
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Once one takes those sorts of “short cuts”, then one loses the right to claim what is a historical “orthodoxy”. For example : The most ancient and well known (and quite orthodox) hymn among Christians was called “The Pearl”. The hymns text sings of a spirit who leaves the pre-creation home and comes to earth (which is represented by Babylon) to find a “pearl” and then , after acquiring the pearl, returns back to his heavenly home and is given the clothes of a prince by his father, the king.
Though you may believe differently then the ancient Christians ; (though I may believe differently) we still must allow the ancients, their beliefs AND, the early Christian belief regarding the existence of spirits in men before birth is one of the most orthodox and well attested doctrines of early Judao-Christianity as I have shown.
B]Clear lens[/b] nesenert [/quote]
You make claims of taking shortcuts and of improvising doctrine which are completely unfounded. The truth of the matter is that you reject the doctrinal teaching of knowledgeable pastors and theologians in favor of what is found in extra-Biblical writings and treat them as if they have divine authority, which they do not possess.
And if it wasn't clear before, I will say it again. The belief of the pre-existence of souls, or of the human spirit was not held by the church as a whole, but by a few. And the belief is a heresy. It is not taught in the Bible.
I mentioned Origen earlier. He believed in the pre-existence of souls. But he also believed in Universalism which is another heresy and is not taught in the Bible.
If something that the early church believed does not line up with the Bible then it is an unsound teaching.
I don't think it's a matter of "questioning" what John meant, but rather knowing and understanding what he meant.
Out of curiosity, why would you give greater weight to what a particular "Church Father" believed then what John himself believed? Would it not be better to know what John the Baptist himself believed concerning baptism? After all, John was a prophet, endorsed by Christ, right?
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I'm not giving it greater weight, I am just using sources closer to the time of the Apostles... it's fairly obvious being "born of water and the Spirit" obviously refers to Baptism.
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
I agree that man must be born again - regenerated, and yes it is a spiritual regeneration.
However, it would have been much faster for you if you'd just given me the scripture that says ""At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed."
No Katie. There is no verse that uses those exact words. Doctrine is built by a comparison of scripture with other scripture that deals with the subject matter. The nature of your statement above is the same as those who reject the rapture or the trinity. Show me the word 'trinity' or show me the word 'rapture' in the Bible.
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I appreciate you copying the websites but I'd really prefer you just tell me what scripture says this. Studies by various people are nothing more than human opinions. They are not the words of inspired men. Frankly, I prefer to use the Bible to get my information.
To the contrary Katie. The spiritual gift of pastor/teacher is given by the Holy Spirit to certain men so that they can, after having prepared themselves through study, dig into the word of God and understand the doctrines that are there and then teach them to their congregations. Granted, most pastors don't fulfill their responsibility as pastor's, but that is the principle. And in every generation, God sees to it that there are faithful pastor's who accurately teach the word of God.
The studies I provided go into some detail about the doctrine. I would not be telling you anything that is not already in those studies.
My purpose on this forum is to provide doctrinal information. Often I will provide links which address the subject. Those who are truely interested will take the time to study the material. Those who aren't interested will ignore the material and instead, debate, debate, debate.
I explained to you that man was created with body, soul, and human spirit. Then I said that Adam died spiritually when he sinned and that thereafter, everyone is born spiritually dead. That is why he needs to be born again or regenerated. And then I referred you to the studies.
Man is born without a human spirit and therefore can have no relationship with God. This is why man is condemned at the moment of physical birth. Man is under condemnation until he believes in Christ (John 3:18; 3:36).
If you don't want to go to the trouble of studying what knowledgable pastor's have to say about it, then you're not really interested in learning. You have your pre-conceived notions about water baptism and are going to stick with them no matter what.
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Question Mike - Is the Kingdom here now? Is the church synonomous with the Kingdom? Didn't the Kingdom come with power on the day of Pentecost? Wasn't the church established on the day of Pentecost?
John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
The spiritual form of the kingdom is here, and through faith alone in Christ alone the church-age believer enters into it. The physical kingdom will be set up by Christ when He returns at the end of the tribulation.
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Acts 2:41, 47
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Were the people on the day of Pentecost not added to the church/Kingdom, and if so, how and when?
Katie
Katie, you point to Acts 2:41, 47 and your obvious intent is to say 'see, they were baptized and then added to the kingdom'. All the while you ignore the fact that in Peters Second Sermon in Acts 3, he and John were arrested before anyone could be baptized in water (as a matter of fact, Peter tells them in verse 19 to simply repent so that their sins would be wiped away. This is in contrast with Acts 2:38 where Peter says to both repent and then be baptized for the forgiveness of sins) and yet Acts 4:4 says 'But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Do you understand what I am saying. Acts 3 and 4 state that Peter and John gave the gospel message, and told their listeners to simply repent so that their sins would be forgiven. There was no mention of water baptism, and both Peter and John were arrested and put in jail before there was any chance for anyone to be baptized in water. And yet, we are told in Acts 4:4 that many of those who had heard the message had believed what Peter had said and were saved. There were actually about five thousand men who were saved that night without having undergone the ritual of water baptism.
So to answer your question, From the day of Pentecost onward, the moment any person believes in Christ, he is added to the kingdom.
Now, back to John 3:5.
John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism. Readers refer back to posts #1, 51, and 73.
John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism. Readers refer back to posts #1, 51, and 73.
Sure it is. What happens next? John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
In Acts 22:16 '...Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.', is symbolic. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work of grace already accomplished at the moment of faith in Christ. The outward ritual does not produce the inward grace (Romans 2:28,29; Eph 2:8,9).
Water baptism is merely a ritual which pictures what was actually accomplished through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only those who have already been saved through faith in Christ are to be baptized. And it is only a public testimony to faith in Christ. Water baptism has nothing to do with becoming born again.
There are different categories of baptisms. If anyone is interested enough to take the time, here is a thread in which I explain the doctrine of baptisms.
In Acts 22:16 '...Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.', is symbolic. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work of grace already accomplished at the moment of faith in Christ. The outward ritual does not produce the inward grace (Romans 2:28,29; Eph 2:8,9).
Water baptism is merely a ritual which pictures what was actually accomplished through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only those who have already been saved through faith in Christ are to be baptized. And it is only a public testimony to faith in Christ. Water baptism has nothing to do with becoming born again.
The Bible gives clear indication that baptism is much, much more than an empty symbol. It is necessary for salvation and intrinsic to the Gospel –
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" (Acts 8:35*36).
See also Acts 10:47. Jesus commands to baptize just before His Ascension (very significant): "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).
Baptism is used to identify God's elect and therefore is a real incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ – "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:4*6). See also 1 Corinthians 10:2, 12:27; Galatians 3:27.
Sure it is. What happens next? John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism
No it is not. John 3:22 is a different context altogether. There is no connection between the two passages. You need to understand that the ritual of water baptism cannot result in eternal life. Only those who have already been saved through faith in Christ are to be baptized in water. Water baptism is only a picture of the inward conversion that took place when a person placed their faith in Christ.
I have shown in posts #1, 51, and 73 what water meant to a Pharisee and why Jesus used the phrase 'born of water'. And I have shown the scripture for it.
The Bible gives clear indication that baptism is much, much more than an empty symbol. It is necessary for salvation and intrinsic to the Gospel –
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" (Acts 8:35*36).
See also Acts 10:47. Jesus commands to baptize just before His Ascension (very significant): "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).
Baptism is used to identify God's elect and therefore is a real incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ – "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:4*6). See also 1 Corinthians 10:2, 12:27; Galatians 3:27.
I keep telling people and telling people that there is a difference between the ritual of water baptism and the real baptism of the Holy Spirit. And people just won't listen. The ritual of water baptism only pictures what took place at the moment of faith in Christ.
This is not complicated. I suggest that you take a look at my thread on the doctrine of baptisms which I have already provided.
Mike555: Regarding your rebuttal of the early Judao-Christian belief of Pre-existence :
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“Mike555 said : In Judaism, one of the beliefs is of the pre-existence of the soul. In the Apocryphal book of 'The Wisdom of Solomon' 8:19-20, pre-existence is mentioned.
Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 ''As a child I was born to excellence, and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body.''
This contradicts Zech 12:1 'The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declared the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Mike555, Can you explain why you think Zech 12:1 is a rebuttal to the Judao-Christian doctrine of pre-existence of spirits?
For example, the many, many Judao-Christian Tests I have quoted, do not contradict Zech 12:1. in fact, the Judao Christians may have been explaining what Zechariah 12:1 meant to the ancient Judao-Christian. I might have been tempted to used Zech 12:1 to SUPPORT pre-existence if I thought it had more value in indicating WHEN a spirit was formed.
Mike555, Is there some explanation or data that you want to add so as to make your rebuttal understandable, or to give it more strength???
This is not complicated. I suggest that you take a look at my thread on the doctrine of baptisms which I have already provided.
You're right, it's not.. I suggest you read what the church fathers had to say about baptism...
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]). [CENTER]Origen[/CENTER]
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