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Could someone please tell me at what point in the scriptures the people on the day of Pentecost were saved ?
Could someone please tell me where it says the people received the Holy Spirit the moment they believed?
Could someone please tell me if the people who believed and were baptized were added to the church or the Kingdom?
Could someone please tell me if John 3:5 says that you cannot enter the Kingdom unless you are born of water and the Spirit?
Could someone please show me ONE scripture anywhere that says we are saved by faith alone?
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
It says, "the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were listening. . ." and "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles. . ." and "received the Holy Spirit just as we did. . ." To me none of those phrases are an indication that the Holy Spirit entered into the believes and performed the act of regeneration on them. As far as I can tell what happened to them is they received the gift of tongues in order to convince the Jews present that God did indeed intend for Gentiles to be a part of the church. If the Holy Spirit had indeed indwelled them Peter would not have "ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. . ."
I contend that the obedience was also being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Yes, and one receives Christ by being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Paul was not making a statement about the purpose of baptism in this passage. He was trying to get the church in Corinth to quit dividing themselves over who baptized them. Paul states that he, in fact, did baptized some of them. And if baptism is not a part of the gospel its hard to figure why Jesus commanded it and why virtually every conversion account in the book of Acts has only baptism as the common element.
Yes, and why did they get water baptized? So that they would be indwelled by the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38).
I can't speak for katiemygirl, but I don't believe they could have lost their salvation if that hadn't been water baptized afterwards. I believe they weren't saved at all until they were water baptized. And yes, I believe that in extraordinary circumstances, such as this, that the Holy Spirit can and will fall on and be poured out on unbelievers. This is not a normal course of events, though.
In post #156 someone asked you if you believe that water baptism saves. You said 'No'. But here you say that a person isn't saved until he is baptized.
That, and the other things you said in this post, this twisting of Scripture to suit prefered beliefs is why I am done talking about it. For now. You can't get through to people who won't be honest with themselves.
You've been given enough information to understand the issue. Believe what you will.
In post #156 someone asked you if you believe that water baptism saves. You said 'No'. But here you say that a person isn't saved until he is baptized.
That, and the other things you said in this post, this twisting of Scripture to suit prefered beliefs is why I am done talking about it. For now. You can't get through to people who won't be honest with themselves.
You've been given enough information to understand the issue. Believe what you will.
I know this post is directed to Greatdivide, but I couldn't help but notice Mike's famous last words to people when he has no answer.
MIKE'S FAMOUS LAST WORDS = You have been given enough information to understand the issue. Believe what you will.
That is another way of saying, "I CAN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS WITH SCRIPTURES."
I just pointed out to someone, that you know you have the truth when you are not afraid to answer any question someone may ask, or back up with scriptures what you believe. But when someone asks you a question, and you can't give them an honest answer, then you know you do not have the truth. At least that's been my own experience.
I have backed off of a certain belief when someone showed me the truth, and I couldn't refute it. It's not easy to admit when you're wrong about the scriptures, but if you're not willing to do that, then you are left to wallow in your pride and risk your salvation. I'm not willing to do that.
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander
Mike555;18805289]Katie, I am trying to be pretty much done talking about this subject for now, and I'll not be going back to answer any of the other posts concerning water baptism which I have not already answered, but I do want to point out the following. And I also want to point out that this is not about debate. This is about orientation to truth.
The topic of the thread is John 3:5. Kids in America posted me about the different baptisms. I answered her post.
You began this thread by stating your opinions. I, and others, disagree with what you have said.
I have asked you repeatedly the same questions, and you, not one time, in this thread or any other thread, have answered them. You claim you have, but you have not. If you had, I would have moved on.
You are the Original Poster of this thread. When you make statements that others do not agree with, you not only have a responsibility to answer questions, but you should have the common courtesy to do so. (Posts #133, #135)
Instead of answering my legitimate questions, you answered my post to Kids in America, which is off topic. If you'll notice, I suggested the poster go to my thread on the topic of "One Baptism."
You made a false statement. You used 1 Corinthians 1:14-17, and drew the following conclusion in another post. I've asked you repeatedly to tell me what the context of the passage is, starting with verse 10.
MIKE SAID, "Paul made it clear that a person is saved by the gospel. Not by water baptism."
You have made a huge leap when you use the scriptures in 1 Corinthians to say that Paul made it clear that a person is saved by the gospel and not water baptism.
Might I remind you that Paul also wrote Romans 6:3-5 where he tells us how we are buried in baptism, and how we are freed from sin when we are baptized.
I am asking you again to please tell me the context of the passage in which Paul says, "I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name."
I have posted over and over the scriptures from Acts chapter 2. I am asking you again to show me in the scriptures when the people were saved.
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
If you believe that what you say is correct, then you should have no problem answering my questions. It is not a matter of debate. It is a matter of backing up what you say with scripture, which you refuse to do.
Mike, your opinions are worthless as are everyone's, including my own. Scriptures are truth. Use them!
Katie
I know what the topic of the thread is. As you said, it's my thread. I have answered guestions both on this thread and in that other thread that you did on baptism and which you indicated in a DM that you wanted me to debate with you.
Now there are some posts that I have not replied to. And there are perhaps some questions in a particular post which I may have skipped over. And there are questions which have been answered, either on this thread or on other threads only to be asked again. But for the most part, the questions have been answered. You do not like the answers to your questions and so claim that they have not been answered. You claim that I do not back up what I say. I have always backed up what I have said. Either with Scripture or by providing studies which others have done on the subject in question.
Katie, you are a person who believes in baptismal regeneration. That is legalism. That is in opposition to grace. You do not listen to the answers you have been given in response to your questions, but instead you twist the Scriptures as so many do in order to fit your existing beliefs. Such a person cannot be gotten through to.
You cannot even distinquish between the real baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ritual of water baptism. And this is very basic stuff. I have repeatedly explained the difference, but to no avail. I am done discussing it with you. I will spend no more time on it.
I know that there is ONE baptism. I also know that on the day of Pentecost the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, people who had received Peter's word. They were baptized, and the same day there were added unto them about 3000 souls. And the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, daily such as should be saved.
Do you disagree with this?
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The following verses are saying the same thing. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom."
Mark 16:15-16 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When we are baptized, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
Titus 3:5-6 tell us, "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The washing of rebirth is an allusion to baptism in water and reinforces what John 3:5 is saying.
Paul tells us in Ephesians, "13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
I also know that the baptism of fire is one of judgement. Verse 12 makes it pretty clear.
Do you agree?
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I believe we are given the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. I see only ONE baptism, the one that saves us, gives us the Holy Spirit, and allows us into the church, the spiritual Kingdom.
See my other thread about the One baptism of Ephesians.
Katie
Soooooooooo… basically you are saying 1+1=1
Ummm… seems that you are conflating the two variant baptisms (i.e. Spirit and water) into one baptism. If so, I totally disagree with you. I believe there is only ONE SINGLE baptism, which is the baptism of the “Holy Spirit”.
Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but [in Contrast] one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
I read TWO separate and distinct baptisms in this passage not one baptism.
Last edited by kids in america_; 04-20-2011 at 09:31 AM..
In post #156 someone asked you if you believe that water baptism saves. You said 'No'. But here you say that a person isn't saved until he is baptized.
Both are true. Baptism saves no one, but no one is saved until they are baptized. To say that baptism saves is to raise baptism to the level of God because only God can save. The fact that He chooses to save us when we are baptized is abundantly clear in Scripture.
Quote:
That, and the other things you said in this post, this twisting of Scripture to suit prefered beliefs is why I am done talking about it. For now. You can't get through to people who won't be honest with themselves.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought we might be able to discuss this like brothers in the Lord, but I guess not.
Quote:
You've been given enough information to understand the issue. Believe what you will.
Thanks! You're right I have been given enough information and I believe I do understand the issue, so I will believe what I see being taught in God's Word.
So what do you do with baptism in water which is evident throughout the book of Acts?
The book of Acts was a transitional period. The “church” at that time was mainly made up of former Jews or Jewish proselytes. Those former Jews were still steeped in Judaism. Therefore they continued to hold on to such Jewish customs and traditions, such as water baptisms, circumcisions, not associating with Gentiles and so forth.
The first century Christians were going through a period of transition.
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