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Yes, it's Matthew 3:11. Only Jesus could baptize with the Spirit.
Katie
You do know water baptism and baptism with the “holy spirit” and “fire” are contrasts of each other, right? A careful reading of Matthew 3:11 indicate there's a difference between the two baptisms.
When the passage in question is speaking of salvation/forgiveness of sins/entrance into the Kingdom, then it is speaking of water baptism. When Jesus told His apostles to baptize, it was with water because they could not baptize with the Spirit.
Katie
Quote:
Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you--that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled."
Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 and he said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day,
Luk 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 You are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And see, I am sending upon you what my Father promised; so stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
Quote:
Act 1:4 While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. "This," he said, "is what you have heard from me;
Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Katiemygirl, the apostles that were sent were told to wait to be endued with power, (i.e. the “Holy Spirit”). Jesus told his disciples “to wait for the Promise of the Father” there in Jerusalem.
You do know water baptism and baptism with the “holy spirit” and “fire” are contrasts of each other, right? A careful reading of Matthew 3:11 indicate there's a difference between the two baptisms.
Hi Kids,
I know that there is ONE baptism. I also know that on the day of Pentecost the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, people who had received Peter's word. They were baptized, and the same day there were added unto them about 3000 souls. And the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, daily such as should be saved.
Do you disagree with this?
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The following verses are saying the same thing. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom."
Mark 16:15-16 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When we are baptized, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
Titus 3:5-6 tell us, "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The washing of rebirth is an allusion to baptism in water and reinforces what John 3:5 is saying.
Paul tells us in Ephesians, "13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
I also know that the baptism of fire is one of judgement. Verse 12 makes it pretty clear.
Do you agree?
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I believe we are given the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. I see only ONE baptism, the one that saves us, gives us the Holy Spirit, and allows us into the church, the spiritual Kingdom.
See my other thread about the One baptism of Ephesians.
Mike555;18636884] Being born of water does not refer to physical birth. Nor does it refer to water baptism. It is a reference to the gospel. In John 3:5 Jesus was talking to Nicodemus who was a Pharisee. 'Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'' Because Jesus was speaking to a Pharisee He used terms that would be meaningful to a Pharisee.
To a Pharisee water had the following spiritual connotations.
1] Water could mean salvation:
Isa 55:1''Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.''
John 4:14''but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
2] Water could refer to the water of the word:
Eph 5:26'that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.'
3] Water could mean the water of the Holy Spirit:
John 7:38 ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 3:5 'Jesus answered, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water [the gospel] and the Spirit [regeneration from the source of God the Holy Spirit], he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
I'm not sure which of the above statements are Mike555's belief or which are statements from the two posters he references in his OP. My understanding of John 3:5 does not agree with the above statements.
The meaning of John 3:5
"Born of water" refers to baptism, and there is absolutely nothing else connected with Christianity to which it could refer. For centuries after the gospel was given, "born of water" was never construed to mean anything else other than baptism. For 1500 years, it was clearly understood.
Nicodemus would have had no trouble understanding that "born of water" meant baptism.
It is an historical fact that Jews practiced baptism for gentile converts during the days of Jesus. Nicodemus would have been familiar with the concept.
During Jesus' time, Gentiles who wished to convert to Judaism, immersed themselves in a water bath called a "mikveh." This procedure was called "tevillah."
"The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water, it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as "a little child just born" or "a child of one day" (Yeb.22a; 48b; 97b)
We see the New Testament using similar Jewish terms as "born anew," "new creation," and "born from above."
It would have been obvious to Nicodemus that Jesus was talking about tevillah, or mikvah, or what we now call baptism.
It has been pointed out already by other posters that Nicodemus was well aware that John had been baptizing. He would have also known about Jesus' baptism.
Nicodemus would have known that Jesus meant baptism when He said, "born of water."
John 3:5 like any other scripture should never stand on its own.
On the day of Pentecost, we know that the people are told to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, and they would rececive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In verse 40, Peter exhorts the people with many other words saying "SAVE YOURSELVES....." Verse 41 states that those who received his word were baptized, and 3000 souls were added that day. Verse 47 tells us that the Lord added to the church such as should be saved. We know the church is the Kingdom.
The people on the day of Pentecost were "born of water and the Spirit," and they were added to the Kingdom.
Mark 16:16 is a commentary on John 3:5.
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
This is exactly what the people did on the day of Pentecost. They believed, they were baptized. They were added to the Kingdom.
Katiemygirl, the apostles that were sent were told to wait to be endued with power, (i.e. the “Holy Spirit”). Jesus told his disciples “to wait for the Promise of the Father” there in Jerusalem.
I do not disagree with what you are saying. I understand that the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
I know that there is ONE baptism. I also know that on the day of Pentecost the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, people who had received Peter's word. They were baptized, and the same day there were added unto them about 3000 souls. And the Lord added to the church, His spiritual Kingdom, daily such as should be saved.
Do you disagree with this?
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The following verses are saying the same thing. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom."
Mark 16:15-16 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When we are baptized, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
Titus 3:5-6 tell us, "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The washing of rebirth is an allusion to baptism in water and reinforces what John 3:5 is saying.
Paul tells us in Ephesians, "13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
I also know that the baptism of fire is one of judgement. Verse 12 makes it pretty clear.
Do you agree?
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I believe we are given the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. I see only ONE baptism, the one that saves us, gives us the Holy Spirit, and allows us into the church, the spiritual Kingdom.
See my other thread about the One baptism of Ephesians.
Katie
Katie, I am trying to be pretty much done talking about this subject for now, and I'll not be going back to answer any of the other posts concerning water baptism which I have not already answered, but I do want to point out the following. And I also want to point out that this is not about debate. This is about orientation to truth.
You said this...
''I believe we are given the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. I see only ONE baptism, the one that saves us, gives us the Holy Spirit, and allows us into the church, the spiritual Kingdom.''
No Katie. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer at the moment of faith in Christ. (There were a few exceptions such as in Acts 8:12-18.)
But now carefully read the following if you will.
In Acts 10:44-48 it is plainly stated that the Holy Spirit was received by those to whom Peter was speaking. And those people were then water baptized - after having first received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44 'While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] ''Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptised who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'' 48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...'
Every true born again Christian has the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:32 ''And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.'' What was the obedience spoken of??? Those listening to Peter obeyed the gospel by believing in Christ!!!
To receive Christ is an act of obedience by which the person summits to the work of the cross and bcomes a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. 'Therefore if any man is in Christ he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.'
Do you remember 1 Cor 1:17? Paul distinquished between the gospel and water baptism. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. 'For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.'
Now remember Acts 10:44-48 at the beginning of this post. Peter gave the gospel. The gospel was obeyed by believing in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to those who believed, and THEN they got water baptized.
Now, are you going to say that they would have lost their salvation if they hadn't been water baptized afterwards? You've just seen above that only those who are born again receive the Holy Spirit. You've just seen above that those who had been born again had received the Holy Spirit and then afterwards performed the ritual of water baptism.
Katie, do you not smell the stench of legalism that insists that a ritual must be performed in order to be saved?
Katie, if you will take the time to do some honest research, you will see that the ritual of water baptism is not the real baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are two entirely different things.
Now I will ask you and everyone reading this to go into this link and carefully read it. Not just skim over it. Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
No Katie. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer at the moment of faith in Christ. (There were a few exceptions such as in Acts 8:12-18.)
But now carefully read the following if you will.
In Acts 10:44-48 it is plainly stated that the Holy Spirit was received by those to whom Peter was speaking. And those people were then water baptized - after having first received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44 'While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] ''Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptised who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'' 48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...'
It says, "the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were listening. . ." and "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles. . ." and "received the Holy Spirit just as we did. . ." To me none of those phrases are an indication that the Holy Spirit entered into the believes and performed the act of regeneration on them. As far as I can tell what happened to them is they received the gift of tongues in order to convince the Jews present that God did indeed intend for Gentiles to be a part of the church. If the Holy Spirit had indeed indwelled them Peter would not have "ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. . ."
Quote:
Every true born again Christian has the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:32 ''And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.'' What was the obedience spoken of??? Those listening to Peter obeyed the gospel by believing in Christ!!!
I contend that the obedience was also being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Quote:
To receive Christ is an act of obedience by which the person summits to the work of the cross and bcomes a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. 'Therefore if any man is in Christ he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.'
Yes, and one receives Christ by being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Quote:
Do you remember 1 Cor 1:17? Paul distinquished between the gospel and water baptism. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. 'For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.'
Paul was not making a statement about the purpose of baptism in this passage. He was trying to get the church in Corinth to quit dividing themselves over who baptized them. Paul states that he, in fact, did baptized some of them. And if baptism is not a part of the gospel its hard to figure why Jesus commanded it and why virtually every conversion account in the book of Acts has only baptism as the common element.
Quote:
Now remember Acts 10:44-48 at the beginning of this post. Peter gave the gospel. The gospel was obeyed by believing in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to those who believed, and THEN they got water baptized.
Yes, and why did they get water baptized? So that they would be indwelled by the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38).
Quote:
Now, are you going to say that they would have lost their salvation if they hadn't been water baptized afterwards? You've just seen above that only those who are born again receive the Holy Spirit. You've just seen above that those who had been born again had received the Holy Spirit and then afterwards performed the ritual of water baptism.
I can't speak for katiemygirl, but I don't believe they could have lost their salvation if that hadn't been water baptized afterwards. I believe they weren't saved at all until they were water baptized. And yes, I believe that in extraordinary circumstances, such as this, that the Holy Spirit can and will fall on and be poured out on unbelievers. This is not a normal course of events, though.
[quote] Mike555;18805289]Katie, I am trying to be pretty much done talking about this subject for now, and I'll not be going back to answer any of the other posts concerning water baptism which I have not already answered, but I do want to point out the following. And I also want to point out that this is not about debate. This is about orientation to truth.
The topic of the thread is John 3:5. Kids in America posted me about the different baptisms. I answered her post.
You began this thread by stating your opinions. I, and others, disagree with what you have said.
I have asked you repeatedly the same questions, and you, not one time, in this thread or any other thread, have answered them. You claim you have, but you have not. If you had, I would have moved on.
You are the Original Poster of this thread. When you make statements that others do not agree with, you not only have a responsibility to answer questions, but you should have the common courtesy to do so. (Posts #133, #135)
Instead of answering my legitimate questions, you answered my post to Kids in America, which is off topic. If you'll notice, I suggested the poster go to my thread on the topic of "One Baptism."
You made a false statement. You used 1 Corinthians 1:14-17, and drew the following conclusion in another post. I've asked you repeatedly to tell me what the context of the passage is, starting with verse 10.
MIKE SAID, "Paul made it clear that a person is saved by the gospel. Not by water baptism."
You have made a huge leap when you use the scriptures in 1 Corinthians to say that Paul made it clear that a person is saved by the gospel and not water baptism.
Might I remind you that Paul also wrote Romans 6:3-5 where he tells us how we are buried in baptism, and how we are freed from sin when we are baptized.
I am asking you again to please tell me the context of the passage in which Paul says, "I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name."
I have posted over and over the scriptures from Acts chapter 2. I am asking you again to show me in the scriptures when the people were saved.
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
If you believe that what you say is correct, then you should have no problem answering my questions. It is not a matter of debate. It is a matter of backing up what you say with scripture, which you refuse to do.
Mike, your opinions are worthless as are everyone's, including my own. Scriptures are truth. Use them!
Katie
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