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All candid authorities agree that 'born of water refers to baptism. So Alford, Wesley, Abbott, Whitby, Olshausen, Tholuck, Pro.Wm.Milligan, the Episcopal Prayer book, the Westminster Confession, the M.E Discipline, the M.E.Doctrinal tracts, and also the writers of the early Church all declare. Alford says: All attempts to get rid of this have sprung from doctrinal prejudices" Abbot says: "We are to understand Christ as he expected his auditor to understand him. John the Baptist baptized both Jew and Gentile as a sign of purification by repentance of pass sins. Nicodemus would then have certainly understood by the expression, 'born of water,'a reference to this rite of baptism."
What are you going to do with these text ?
Mark 16:16 / Matthew 28:18 / Romans 6:1-7 / Galatians 3:26-27 / Eph 4:4
Colossians 2:8-15 / 1Peter 3:21
And tell me What dose the water mean in 1Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Show me Chapter and verse when the blood of Christ is applied for our sins.
No man has proof of pardon until he is baptized.
Baptism is visible certificate or pledge of remission of sins.
Baptism is proof that a believer is forgiven to a changed state.
Justification by Faith in Jesus Christ, which means that we are to take Him at His word and do what it requires.
Again ! The Consensus of Bible scholars, in all ages, establishes the fact that baptism is the act referred to by the phrase 'born of water'
Pisteuo - Believe in the Greek means persuaded to the point of obedience
Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
You're right, it's not.. I suggest you read what the church fathers had to say about baptism...
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]). [CENTER]Origen[/CENTER]
I know I'm right. It's not complicated. I suggest that you go back and read my posts on this thread. The church fathers were far from infallible in their understanding of what the Bible teaches. The issue is what does the Bible teach. Not what the church fathers believed.
Eternal salvation in every dispensation has always been through faith alone in Christ alone.
In Acts chapters 3 and 4 there were some five thousand men saved by believing what Peter said to them. They did not have a chance to be baptized in water because Peter and John were arrested and put in jail. In Acts 4:4 it says, 'But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. And that was without being water baptized.
Read 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 ''I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15] that no man should say you were baptized in my name. 16] Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17] For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. ''
Now, does that sound to you as if Paul thought that eternal salvation depended on a ritual???
Paul makes a distinction between the gospel and water baptism. In other words, water baptism is not a part of the Gospel. The gospel message is this: 1 Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2] by which you also are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4] and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. And John 3:16 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.'
It is a positive faith response to the gospel (placing your faith in Christ) through which you are saved. Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9] not of works, that no one should boast.
I'm not giving it greater weight, I am just using sources closer to the time of the Apostles... it's fairly obvious being "born of water and the Spirit" obviously refers to Baptism.
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
The disciples were still under the law of Moses (John’s baptism), until the spirit (real baptism) was given to them at Pentecost (Acts 2). I also want to note that Jesus Christ himself did not baptize anyone with typical water. AndI wonder why.
Last edited by kids in america_; 04-17-2011 at 02:41 AM..
The disciples were still under the law of Moses (John’s baptism), until the spirit (real baptism) was given to them at Pentecost (Acts 2). I also want to note that Jesus Christ himself did not baptize anyone with typical water. AndI wonder why.
That pretty much spells it out for me on Baptism. Thank you.
The disciples were still under the law of Moses (John’s baptism), until the spirit (real baptism) was given to them at Pentecost (Acts 2). I also want to note that Jesus Christ himself did not baptize anyone with typical water. AndI wonder why.
I can only speculate but since Jesus certainly allowed His disciples to baptized people (see John 4:2) he wasn't against it. But I suspect the reason He didn't baptize anyone Himself is because He didn't want people to elevate themselves above others because they were actually baptized by the Messiah. And you can believe that that most certainly would have happened had Jesus baptized people. But Jesus Himself was not anti-baptism and so many people today seem to be and seem to imply is the Biblical position.
That's pretty arrogant. Billions of people would beg to differ with you.
Quote:
The church fathers were far from infallible in their understanding of what the Bible teaches.
Apparently neither are you. Iraneus, for example had the benefit of being one generation from John himself. (Iraneuswas a desciple of Polycarp who was a desciple of John) You're intrepretation 2000 years after the fact is baseless speculation and a man centered doctrine.
I'm not giving it greater weight, I am just using sources closer to the time of the Apostles... it's fairly obvious being "born of water and the Spirit" obviously refers to Baptism.
I don't think you're really making your case here. It would be even more advantageous for us to go directly to the original source: John the baptist, himself. And, that is what Josephus does for us.
Josephus, a Jewish historian who was born 5 years after John died, tells us what John's baptism signified, and what John meant by the phrase "for the remission of sins". And, Josephus tells us that the phrase was not used to describe what the literal act of being baptized accomplished, per se, but rather what baptism was signifying to those who were being baptized.
John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. It symbolized that the one being baptized had already repented (past tense), and that those who had so repented were testifying publicly to that fact. The waters of baptism were not the act that accomplished repentance itself, but rather symbolized and pointed to it's reality.
Now, knowing that baptism was a public testimony of what it signified, we're in a better place to understand what the term "water" signifies within the context of "baptism".
If it's your belief that "water" in Joh 3:5 signifies "baptism", I don't necessarily disagree with you, if we understand too, as John did, that baptism itself was also symbolic. Baptism, like water, points to and signifies the reality of what it represents. Within the context of regeneration (Joh 3:5), "water" (or "baptism", your choice ) points to the cleansing act of the Spirit:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The "water" in Joh 3:5 is clearly seen through Ezekiel as being symbolic as to the cleansing act of the Spirit, the operative cause of our regeneration. It also is clearly shown to be an act of monergism, an act of the Spirit alone that causes the rebirth. Notice all the I's. It is all the work of God.
And, this act of rebirth is being accomplished for the sake of God's glory, not for the sake of the one being reborn:
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD ; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD , be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
That's pretty arrogant. Billions of people would beg to differ with you.
Apparently neither are you. Iraneus, for example had the benefit of being one generation from John himself. (Iraneuswas a desciple of Polycarp who was a desciple of John) You're intrepretation 2000 years after the fact is baseless speculation and a man centered doctrine.
Do you truly think that believers today cannot understand what the Bible teaches???
People's opinions are meaningless. Truth is what matters. Anyone who thinks that eternal salvation must involve a ritual just doesn't understand the grace of God.
I refer you back to post #112. You should read it carefully.
Did you not understand that in Peter's second sermon in Acts chapters 3 and 4 there were about 5000 people saved without having been water baptized???
I will ask you to do some honest research on the matter. Here is a brief article I just picked after having done a search on 'water baptism is not a requirement for salvation.'
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) points to the cleansing act of the Spirit:
