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Old 06-14-2011, 12:48 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,972,353 times
Reputation: 737

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Hmmmm......so you're not at ETer? This sounds more like some new age teaching that I've never heard of. Please explain what it is you believe in more detail and tell us what your denomination is.
Then what is hell to you? A real place? If hell is real, then its our bodies that go there.... is it not?

I mentioned what denomination I was raised in the other post.... much of which their teachings I don't necessarily ascribe to.

This is the website to that denomination.
Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus, Asamblea Apostolica

they have amazing concepts... but they also have some that I quite don't agree with. But that doesn't mean that I don't count them as my brothers and sisters. And neither do I discount you as my sister/brother. I'm male btw.

But back to the question in reference.... where do people get that hell is a real place? Where in the bible did it ever mention that hell is a physical place? Hell is a spiritual place... just like the after life is all a spiritual place.

But as I said... yes, I believe that universalists and fundamentalists can't agree because they've been reading into it wrong. Am I saying that they are not of God? No. I'm saying that if we'd all be a bit more open minded to each other then we can get there in one mind, and one accord.

I'm not getting an open mindedness from a lot of folks on here. As you can tell, both fundamentalist and universalists have been arguing with me.

A lot of the talk about the predestination is mostly misinterpreted. Simply put, the body of Christ, which is the church, them who have believed in the name of Jesus Christ are the ones who God predestined before the foundations of the Earth, so that in the fullness of time he might gather everything that which is in Heaven and in Earth and subject all under its feet so that God may be God in all.

Jesus Christ is the head of that body and we, you and I, Ilene are that body of Christ. We are the chosen generation, that royal priesthood, simply because we have believed that Jesus Christ was the one who achieved the perfect life that every religion and every person on earth is trying to accomplish. That is why Paul admonishes us and challenges us to not be moved from that hope of the Gospel and to continue in that faith. We may fall from time to time, but as John said, we have an advocate with God, which is Jesus Christ, the just. This is the Church. The body of Christ is the Church.

Listen to what John says, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Yes, Ilene, the Church, the body of Christ is the true God and eternal life. So it is expedient to tell everyone who Christ is and what he has come to do for our lives. Yes, Christ takes away the sins of the World. Yes, there is now no condemnation. Yes, death and hell have not prevailed. But we ONLY find that in Christ.

It's very very important to understand that.

 
Old 06-14-2011, 12:49 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,972,353 times
Reputation: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It is a physical place. It is an allegoircal description that transpired in reality. Would you like to know more?
I'm all ears. If you say that hell is this life... I can agree with you. If you say that hell is a real place of torture, fire and brimstone, how does that jive with our souls entering this "physical" place when our souls are not physical entities?
 
Old 06-14-2011, 01:49 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,279,774 times
Reputation: 58115
[quote=migol84;19579954]
Quote:
Then what is hell to you? A real place? If hell is real, then its our bodies that go there.... is it not?
It depends on what your version of "hell" is.....are you talking about Gehenna? Yes, Gehenna was a real place but it doesn't exist anymore. Just like "hell" as believed by ETer's is not a permanent place. It's metaphorical, it's symbolic (LOF) and it represents something that none of us can understand because we're in the physical world.

Quote:
I mentioned what denomination I was raised in the other post.... much of which their teachings I don't necessarily ascribe to.

This is the website to that denomination.
Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus, Asamblea Apostolica
My bad, I should have read through the entire thread, I'm real bad about that.
Quote:
they have amazing concepts... but they also have some that I quite don't agree with. But that doesn't mean that I don't count them as my brothers and sisters. And neither do I discount you as my sister/brother. I'm male btw.
Ok, thanks for that! I consider you my "brother" also.

Quote:
But back to the question in reference.... where do people get that hell is a real place? Where in the bible did it ever mention that hell is a physical place? Hell is a spiritual place... just like the after life is all a spiritual place.
It's not a real place, like most people believe anyway. That's what UR's are trying to convey in a way, there is not an eternal fiery hell that most believe in. There is a time for refinement and spiritual rejuvenation and everyone will be given the chance to accept Jesus Christ, even if they rejected Him in this life. That's what His work was all about on the cross, He is the Savior of ALL>!!! I never get tired of quoting this scripture:

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Quote:
But as I said... yes, I believe that universalists and fundamentalists can't agree because they've been reading into it wrong. Am I saying that they are not of God? No. I'm saying that if we'd all be a bit more open minded to each other then we can get there in one mind, and one accord.
LOL, that's funny!! Have you visited the C-D Christianity forum lately? UR's do not claim that ETer's are not Christians, it's the other way around so you'll forgive me for thinking you were a fundamentalist because of what you clearly implied to Mystic in the other thread.


Quote:
I'm not getting an open mindedness from a lot of folks on here. As you can tell, both fundamentalist and universalists have been arguing with me.
Well, I'm sorry about that but it is the nature of the beast. You jump into a mosh pit when you participate here. We're just all trying to understand.


Quote:
A lot of the talk about the predestination is mostly misinterpreted. Simply put, the body of Christ, which is the church, them who have believed in the name of Jesus Christ are the ones who God predestined before the foundations of the Earth, so that in the fullness of time he might gather everything that which is in Heaven and in Earth and subject all under its feet so that God may be God in all.
I'm sorry but you'll have to expound on this, because it sounds like something I would say.

Quote:
Jesus Christ is the head of that body and we, you and I, Ilene are that body of Christ. We are the chosen generation, that royal priesthood, simply because we have believed that Jesus Christ was the one who achieved the perfect life that every religion and every person on earth is trying to accomplish. That is why Paul admonishes us and challenges us to not be moved from that hope of the Gospel and to continue in that faith. We may fall from time to time, but as John said, we have an advocate with God, which is Jesus Christ, the just. This is the Church. The body of Christ is the Church.
Yep, I can agree with all that.

Quote:
Listen to what John says, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Yes, once again I can agree with that.

Quote:
Yes, Ilene, the Church, the body of Christ is the true God and eternal life. So it is expedient to tell everyone who Christ is and what he has come to do for our lives. Yes, Christ takes away the sins of the World. Yes, there is now no condemnation. Yes, death and hell have not prevailed. But we ONLY find that in Christ.
Yes again, we only find that in Christ. He is our only salvation, our bridge to the Father. He filled that gap, that void that only He can fill. But don't discount people just because they were not elected to be the "chosen".....we're not all chosen in this life. That doesn't mean we won't have the opportunity to accept Him in the next. Think about it, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus' saving grace ends at death.....it's just not there my friend.

Quote:
It's very very important to understand that.
Yes it is. And we need to be spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ every chance we get. Some of us prefer to do it on the internet.
 
Old 06-14-2011, 02:16 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,972,353 times
Reputation: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It depends on what your version of "hell" is.....are you talking about Gehenna? Yes, Gehenna was a real place but it doesn't exist anymore. Just like "hell" as believed by ETer's is not a permanent place. It's metaphorical, it's symbolic (LOF) and it represents something that none of us can understand because we're in the physical world.
Yes, I agree. Why was kat disagreeing with me when this was what I was saying all along?

Quote:
It's not a real place, like most people believe anyway. That's what UR's are trying to convey in a way, there is not an eternal fiery hell that most believe in. There is a time for refinement and spiritual rejuvenation and everyone will be given the chance to accept Jesus Christ, even if they rejected Him in this life. That's what His work was all about on the cross, He is the Savior of ALL>!!! I never get tired of quoting this scripture:

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
I'm still questioning this idea. When I read the scripture, I read it as a whole.... if Jesus Christ, the church, is the real God as per 1 John 5 then right now... this day, everyone has access to that salvation if they simply believed. And just like in the days of Moses, when the Israelites wandered around the desert for 40 years because of their unbelief, so are many lost souls wandering around in the world because of their own unbelief. Hence, that is why Paul says, "ESPECIALLY of those who believe." So are all saved? Yes, all they have to do is believe it.... other wise their souls will remain hidden in that lost place from which Peter talks about, when Christ went to preach to them. Read further below.

Have you ever seen 2046? It's a chinese film by Wong Kar Wai and its basically a beautiful film about memories. And how our minds stay stuck in the world from which we grew strongly attached to. There is one story where there is an android who can't leave this train and stays there forever. This is somewhat how I view hell... that's the eternal torment.... a metaphorical one. And if the mind is not enlightened by Christ, it remains in their own world, so to speak. In the hell they've created. Or even "Jacob's Ladder" talks about this more deeply. A great film!

Quote:
LOL, that's funny!! Have you visited the C-D Christianity forum lately? UR's do not claim that ETer's are not Christians, it's the other way around so you'll forgive me for thinking you were a fundamentalist because of what you clearly implied to Mystic in the other thread.

Well, I'm sorry about that but it is the nature of the beast. You jump into a mosh pit when you participate here. We're just all trying to understand.

I'm sorry but you'll have to expound on this, because it sounds like something I would say.

Yep, I can agree with all that.

Yes, once again I can agree with that.

Yes again, we only find that in Christ. He is our only salvation, our bridge to the Father. He filled that gap, that void that only He can fill. But don't discount people just because they were not elected to be the "chosen".....we're not all chosen in this life. That doesn't mean we won't have the opportunity to accept Him in the next. Think about it, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus' saving grace ends at death.....it's just not there my friend.

Yes it is. And we need to be spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ every chance we get. Some of us prefer to do it on the internet.
A BREAK THROUGH FINALLY!!!!! OMG, I've literally spent hours on threads and forums and hardly have I never got through to some one... but this one, I came pretty darn close to doubting.

My only doubt still remains though.... that just because the Bible doesn't say that the period of grace doesn't end at death that it takes on after death. As I said, I will keep an open mind and keep looking into it. I'll hit up my brother cause he knows waaaaaaaaaaaay more than I do. I'll hit up many of my friends, but keep this in mind that I will try and search and see if the Bible does indeed reference the opportunity of salvation in the after life.

There is a scripture in Peter where he mentions that our Lord, when he died, he preached to the imprisoned souls. I can't remember where exactly... but if he died, then he no longer was in this time capsule that we call here on earth. If that is the case, he went to another "dimension" so to speak.... he went to that spiritual place. This is also mentioned in hebrews, where Christ took back the keys of sin and death, to deliver us from the bondage of death as you can remember. When Christ was in that "realm" then that means that he preached to the souls which died before he came to earth and to the souls that are yet to be born and die without Christ. Think about that.

Good night.
 
Old 06-14-2011, 03:14 AM
 
1,206 posts, read 1,102,597 times
Reputation: 717
hades: the world of the dead. when the soul enters into that world they are on another plain. those who enter hades and waiting for judgment are fallen to sleep, waiting for the final resurrection, when the graves shall burst open and the saved shall me the lord in the air, as well as those who were on the earth and transformed to meet the lord. we know this because no flesh or body shall enter the gates of heaven. the corruptible shall put on incorruption.

hades is used in another form referring to the realm of the dead. this world is the word known as sheoul. this was the description given to the jews about the place of punishment, a place of darkness, it is not the burning literal hell of eternity. it is not where satan or devil and his princes of evill the dark angel, lucifer reside, after the judgment.

hades is used as gehenna, the place of the dead. those in gehenna are concious of it, as they disobeyed and their souls are aware of the eternal sins. this prepared place is there for everyone who waits for the great judgment, and the announcement of the king of heaven, at which every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.

tataroos is the literal burning hell, the hell that will last forever, which was prepared especially for the devil, the dark angels, lucifer, the fallen one, and all the worldly unsaved. the literal burning and gnashing of teeth, the request for water to quench the tongue, but the fire will last an eternity.
this hell will begin after the final judgment and the pronunciation of the lambs from the goat, the father will say depart ye that worketh eniquity into that place that has ever been prepared for you. to those place on his right hand he will say come ye blessed on my father, enter into the yous ever lasting. this is the eternal heaven. it is described as a place that flows w/ miilk and honey, precious jewels line the walls, the streets paved of gold, seraphim, cherubim, angels, archangels, god the father, the son on the right hand of god, the holy comforter. no pain, crying, sadness, we shall be known as we are known, those that were separated by death on earth will be joined together, families, etc., will be reunited.
 
Old 06-14-2011, 06:58 AM
 
154 posts, read 70,653 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
hades: the world of the dead. when the soul enters into that world they are on another plain. those who enter hades and waiting for judgment are fallen to sleep, waiting for the final resurrection, when the graves shall burst open and the saved shall me the lord in the air, as well as those who were on the earth and transformed to meet the lord. we know this because no flesh or body shall enter the gates of heaven. the corruptible shall put on incorruption.

hades is used in another form referring to the realm of the dead. this world is the word known as sheoul. this was the description given to the jews about the place of punishment, a place of darkness, it is not the burning literal hell of eternity. it is not where satan or devil and his princes of evill the dark angel, lucifer reside, after the judgment.

hades is used as gehenna, the place of the dead. those in gehenna are concious of it, as they disobeyed and their souls are aware of the eternal sins. this prepared place is there for everyone who waits for the great judgment, and the announcement of the king of heaven, at which every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.

tataroos is the literal burning hell, the hell that will last forever, which was prepared especially for the devil, the dark angels, lucifer, the fallen one, and all the worldly unsaved. the literal burning and gnashing of teeth, the request for water to quench the tongue, but the fire will last an eternity.
this hell will begin after the final judgment and the pronunciation of the lambs from the goat, the father will say depart ye that worketh eniquity into that place that has ever been prepared for you. to those place on his right hand he will say come ye blessed on my father, enter into the yous ever lasting. this is the eternal heaven. it is described as a place that flows w/ miilk and honey, precious jewels line the walls, the streets paved of gold, seraphim, cherubim, angels, archangels, god the father, the son on the right hand of god, the holy comforter. no pain, crying, sadness, we shall be known as we are known, those that were separated by death on earth will be joined together, families, etc., will be reunited.




The scriptures tells us that when Gods' judgements are in the earth the world will learn rightousness, but i guess that some think even after those that learned after judgement are still sent to suffer for all eternity?????
 
Old 06-14-2011, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,990 posts, read 1,579,179 times
Reputation: 219
Lightbulb A foil of contrast

Quote:
Originally Posted by boanerges View Post
The scriptures tells us that when Gods' judgements are in the earth the world will learn rightousness, but i guess that some think even after those that learned after judgement are still sent to suffer for all eternity?????
I thank God for being able to have an understanding that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to. God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.

But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter's hands and they never leave His hands.

IMO, the doctrine of eternal torment is part of the very black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the brush of His undefeatable grace.

After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.
 
Old 06-14-2011, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,990 posts, read 1,579,179 times
Reputation: 219
I forgot to activate the instant email notification.
My 72 year old memory sometimes lets me down.
 
Old 06-14-2011, 01:31 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,279,774 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I thank God for being able to have an understanding that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to. God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.

But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter's hands and they never leave His hands.

IMO, the doctrine of eternal torment is part of the very black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the brush of His undefeatable grace.

After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.
I really like what you said here, Rodger.....it's very uplifting and poetic and oh-so-true. God is going to do it anyway!!
 
Old 06-14-2011, 03:52 PM
 
10,544 posts, read 5,050,206 times
Reputation: 742
Ilene, my friend in england introduced an atheist friend to his Bible teacher. He said "this is so and so and he's an atheist." The Bible teacher, being a wise old man, had a gleam in his eye and smiled as he said, Oh, that's O.K. he won't always be.
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