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No, not lukewarm at all. I have spend a good deal of time studying these things and it has only strengthened my position. I have also listened and read the URs make their arguments trying to persuade others to believe their view and in the process I have become 100% convinced UR is an anti Christ cult message, and nowhere near the truth.
So let's see here, we have people who actually believe Jesus succeeded on his mission to save the world and then we have people who teach Jesus was a failure and could only save a few who were smart enough to choose Him...Which one of those seeks to steal God's glory and is anti-Christ?
No, not lukewarm at all. I have spend a good deal of time studying these things and it has only strengthened my position.s I have also listened and read their arguments trying to persuade others to believe their view and in the process I have become 100% convinced UR is an anti Christ cult message, and nowhere near the truth.
Sounds familiar, yet I think this guy although not believing was a little more open to the truth, at least he was willing to listen, rather than making his mind up before he had listened. Wouldn't surprise me in the least that King Agrippa believed at a later date. For all come in due time and in order.
Then Agrippa said to Festus, "I would like to hear this man myself."
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
So let's see here, we have people who actually believe Jesus succeeded on his mission to save the world and then we have people who teach Jesus was a failure and could only save a few who were smart enough to choose Him...Which one of those seeks to steal God's glory and is anti-Christ?
If you claim Jesus "succeeded" in something that was never His mission to begin with, then it makes you a liar, because you misrepresent His mission.
Did Jesus fail in His mission to single handedly beat the New York Rangers in the Stanley Cup finals? No, because that was never His mission.
Did He fail in His mission to immediately abolish physical death? How about sin? Pain? Disease? War? Famine? Poverty? No, He did not fail in those missions, because they were NOT his missions. You invented your own version of His mission and then accuse others for thinking Jesus is a failure because he did not accomplish the mission you invented. Jesus was 100% successful in His mission, it's just that you never understood what that mission was, or maybe you knew but wanted to change the story to fit your own anti-christ cult views.
If you claim Jesus "succeeded" in something that was never His mission to begin with, then it makes you a liar, because you misrepresent His mission.
Did Jesus fail in His mission to single handeldly beat the New York Rangers in the Stanley Cup finals? No, because that was never His missin.
Yet he came to seek and save the lost.
Yet he was found by those who sought him not, how on earth do you think this happened Finn ?.
Salvation came to us in the way of Jesus Christ, and the effects of this man's obedience over abounds the effects of Adams disobedience. If this simple truth doesn't get you excited for yourself and the world, for it truely is Tidings of great joy, nothing will.
The greatest day in church history will be the day it beleves against all hope, and believe for once in its history that not only is God willing to save all, He IS the able Savior of all.
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
That is Truth; Amen.
It amazes me that, even with something as important as God's Truth, people are too lazy and apathetic (lukewarm - Revelation 3:16) to research the origin of their beliefs. They are too lukewarm to find out how the pagan doctrine of eternal torment was introduced into the church by the Latin Church Fathers, Minucius Felix, Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian, and Augustine (354-430 A.D.), and many more.
They are too lukewarm to research how the dispensationalist teachings of futurism and the pre-tribulation rapture were a Jesuit Counter-Reformation(the Society of Jesus) plot to distract everyone from the prevailing belief that the pope was the antichrist.
They are too lukewarm to research the shady history behind two Jesuit priests, Luis De Alcazar(1554-1613) and Francisco Ribera(1537–1591). It was Ribera who is the father of the futuristic school of theology, founded in 1585. None of the apostles preached the ideas that we hear today, they were specifically devised as a Counter-Reformation deception.
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that another Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza(1747 -1801) - who published religious ideas under the pen name of Ben Ezra - laid the groundwork for a pre-tribulation rapture in his work; "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty"(1812). Henry Drummond (1786-1860), a city banker and politician; and John Nelson Darby(18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882), of the Plymouth Brethren movement further encouraged this idea when they heard about it from a Scottish Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving. J.N. Darby spread this "new gospel" which intrigued C.I. Scofield(August 19, 1843 - July 24, 1921), and he placed the new doctrine in his notes, which have been widely accepted even to this present day, even though they are refined teachings of a Jesuit Counter-Reformation movement (Francisco Ribera); a movement the pope himself named; "The Society of Jesus."
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that that the first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years.
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that Justinian(A.D. 482-565), a pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, who lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries, closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it.
Hippolytus(A.D. 320) names 32 known heresies, but Universalism is not mentioned as among them. Epiphanius, "the hammer of heretics," describes 80 heresies, but he does not mention universal salvation as one of them.
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that Origen Adamantius(184/185 – 253/254) explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment. Not a word is found hinting at the horrors of what Augustinianism would proclaim, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers (research the history of the earliest church fathers).
And of course, there is the apostle Paul; "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, especially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 4:10)
Does Paul say; "Only of those that believe?" NO! He says; "Especially of those that believe!" This is how God can be gracious TO ALL in the end, but still give more to believers (they reign with Christ in the 1,000 Year Kingdom - Revelation 20:5-6). Even though He is the Savior of ALL mankind, God still distinguishes between believers and unbelievers - believers have been CHOSEN as the "firstfruits."
And Christ says: "No man can come to me, unless the Father who has sent me draw him to me. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me." (John 6:44; 12:32)
The thing that boggles the mind is not the ignorance of the mainstream churches, but the indifference to Bible Truth of the mainstream churches, and the fact that they remain WILLFULLY ignorant. I guess this is why the Scriptures refer to them as MYSTERY Babylon. Preferring to remain ignorant is indeed a mystery.
So let's see here, we have people who actually believe Jesus succeeded on his mission to save the world and then we have people who teach Jesus was a failure and could only save a few who were smart enough to choose Him...Which one of those seeks to steal God's glory and is anti-Christ?
Who concludes that Jesus must have failed his mission? Jesus certianly did not. Jesus shouted "It is finished" for a reason. John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 8:31
... Jesus said, “Ifyouholdtomyteaching, youare really my disciples.
Did Jesus teach... "many" or "all"
Luke 13:24
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Matthew 7:22-23 "Manywill say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Luke 12:47
“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."
Did Jesus teach .... "never"
Matthew 21:19
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
Then what about these "never's" .... the anti-christ message and messengers reject "do not hold" these
Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but neverunderstanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving' "
Matthew 18:3
And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”
John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
John 4:48
“Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty
Jesus does say "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps SOME OF my word, he will never see death.”
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
It amazes me that, even with something as important as God's Truth, people are too lazy and apathetic (lukewarm - Revelation 3:16) to research the origin of their beliefs. They are too lukewarm to find out how the pagan doctrine of eternal torment was introduced into the church by the Latin Church Fathers, Minucius Felix, Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian, and Augustine (354-430 A.D.), and many more.
To the contrary. The eternal punishment of those who die without having recieved Christ as Savior is taught in passages such as 2 Thess 1:8-9, Matt. 25:46, and Rev 20:10. The Latin Church Fathers did not write the Bible.
2 Thess 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The beast mentioned in Rev 20:10 is a reference to the antichrist who is 'the prince who is to come' mentioned in Daniel 9:26 who will make a covenant with the many for one week (Dan 9:27) which will be the beginning of the Tribulation which will be the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week. Daniel 9:26 shows that he will be of Roman descent as it is his people (the Romans) who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.
2 Thess. 2:3 identifies him as the man of lawlessness. 2 Thess 2 also states that he cannot be revealed until the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed. It is the indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit in the church - age believer which restrains the antichrist - the man of lawlessness from being revealed. When the church is raptured the antichrist will be able to be revealed. And when he makes a covenant with the many that will signal the beginning of Daniels seventieth week which is the tribulation.
Now Rev. 20:10 states clearly that the beast (the antichrist) and the false prophet, both of whom are human, will be tormented forever, as will Satan. In fact, by the time that Satan joins the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium, they will have already been there for a thousand years since they will have been sent there at the beginning of the Millennium.
Rev. 20: 11-15 then describes the great white throne judgment after which all unbelievers will be sent into the lake of fire to suffer the same punishment as the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41,46).Matt. 25:46 states that they will go away into eternal punishment in opposition to the righteous who will go into eternal life.
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They are too lukewarm to research how the dispensationalist teachings of futurism and the pre-tribulation rapture were a Jesuit Counter-Reformation(the Society of Jesus) plot to distract everyone from the prevailing belief that the pope was the antichrist.
Dispensations are the framework of God's plan. That there is a difference in the way that God administers His plan with regard to the Gentiles, and then Israel, and then the Church, and then in the Millennium is clearly shown in the Scriptures. Dispensations have to do with administration.
The Tribulation is future. The Church cannot and will not be on the earth during the Tribulation. Rev. 1:19 gives the general overview and outline of the book of Revelation. "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things." The things which you have seen refer to the things described in chapter one. The things which are refer to the present church-age which is represented by the seven churches of the Roman province of Asia which are representative of the trends and cycles of behavior that will take place again and again in various churches throughout the church-age. The things which shall take place after these things refer to the events which follow the rapture of the church. The things which shall take place after these things refer to the events of the Tribulation (Rev. chapters 4-19), the return of Christ to the earth, the defeat of the antichrist, the false prophet, and Satan, and the establishment of the Millennial kingdom (Rev. chapters 19-20), and the eternal state (Rev. chapters 21-22).
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They are too lukewarm to research the shady history behind two Jesuit priests, Luis De Alcazar(1554-1613) and Francisco Ribera(1537–1591). It was Ribera who is the father of the futuristic school of theology, founded in 1585. None of the apostles preached the ideas that we hear today, they were specifically devised as a Counter-Reformation deception.
Since both Paul (an apostle) who wrote that the man of lawlessness cannot be revealed until the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit is removed with the removal of the church from the earth prior to the Tribulation, and John (an apostle) clearly showed in Revelation that the events of the Tribulation will occur after the present church-age has completed, and since the raptured church is seen in heaven during the Tribulation in Rev. 19:7-8, your claim is false.
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They are too lukewarm to research the fact that another Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza(1747 -1801) - who published religious ideas under the pen name of Ben Ezra - laid the groundwork for a pre-tribulation rapture in his work; "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty"(1812). Henry Drummond (1786-1860), a city banker and politician; and John Nelson Darby(18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882), of the Plymouth Brethren movement further encouraged this idea when they heard about it from a Scottish Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving. J.N. Darby spread this "new gospel" which intrigued C.I. Scofield(August 19, 1843 - July 24, 1921), and he placed the new doctrine in his notes, which have been widely accepted even to this present day, even though they are refined teachings of a Jesuit Counter-Reformation movement (Francisco Ribera); a movement the pope himself named; "The Society of Jesus."
As shown above, the pre-tribulational rapture is quite Scriptural.
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They are too lukewarm to research the fact that that the first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years.
Universalism was not taught by the apostles. It was not until the 2nd century that it began to be taught.
Quote:
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that Justinian(A.D. 482-565), a pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, who lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries, closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it.
Hippolytus(A.D. 320) names 32 known heresies, but Universalism is not mentioned as among them. Epiphanius, "the hammer of heretics," describes 80 heresies, but he does not mention universal salvation as one of them.
They are too lukewarm to research the fact that Origen Adamantius(184/185 – 253/254) explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment. Not a word is found hinting at the horrors of what Augustinianism would proclaim, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers (research the history of the earliest church fathers).
And of course, there is the apostle Paul; "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, especially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 4:10)
Does Paul say; "Only of those that believe?" NO! He says; "Especially of those that believe!" This is how God can be gracious TO ALL in the end, but still give more to believers (they reign with Christ in the 1,000 Year Kingdom - Revelation 20:5-6). Even though He is the Savior of ALL mankind, God still distinguishes between believers and unbelievers - believers have been CHOSEN as the "firstfruits."
No, Paul did not teach Universalism. As already shown, Paul said the following in 2 Thess 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
1 Tim. 2:4 says only that God desires or wants all men to be saved. 'who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. It does not say that all men will be saved. There are a number of passages which plainly teach that all men will not be saved. I have already shown some of those passages.
As for 1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.' This refers only to the fact that Christ died for all men (unlimited atonement - 2 Cor 5:14,15; 1 Tim 2:6; Heb. 2:9). It does not state that all men will be saved. Thoughout the N.T. salvation is conditioned upon faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, 36; Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8-9; 1 John 5:10-11).
Only in those who believe in Christ for eternal salvation does God's desire for their salvation come to fruition.
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And Christ says: "No man can come to me, unless the Father who has sent me draw him to me. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me." (John 6:44; 12:32)
All men are both called and drawn by means of the gospel. No man can be saved apart from a positive faith response to the call of the gospel.
In both John 6:44 and John 12:32 Jesus did not say or imply that all men will be saved for He distinquished between those who would be resurrected to life, and those who would be resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29).
By 'all men' Jesus meant that salvation was available to both Jew and Gentile as shown in the following passages.
John 10:16 "I have other sheep (Gentiles), which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
John 11:52 and not for the nation only (the Jewish nation), but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
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The thing that boggles the mind is not the ignorance of the mainstream churches, but the indifference to Bible Truth of the mainstream churches, and the fact that they remain WILLFULLY ignorant. I guess this is why the Scriptures refer to them as MYSTERY Babylon. Preferring to remain ignorant is indeed a mystery.
Mystery Babylon does not refer to the true church, but to the apostate religious system which will be prevalent during the seven year Tribulation and which may very well be represented by the Roman Catholic Church.
Universalism is not taught or even hinted at in the Bible. Universalists ignore or distort the passages which plainly teach eternal punishment, and twist the passages which they use to promote that false belief system.
The thing that boggles the mind is not the ignorance of the mainstream churches, but the indifference to Bible Truth of the mainstream churches, and the fact that they remain WILLFULLY ignorant. I guess this is why the Scriptures refer to them as MYSTERY Babylon. Preferring to remain ignorant is indeed a mystery.
Mystery Babylon does not refer to the true church, but to the apostate religious system which will be prevalent during the seven year Tribulation and which may very well be represented by the Roman Catholic Church.
You are partially correct. But it is not the RCC exclusively:
And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.
(Revelation 17:5)
The RCC is the MOTHER of Harlots. Who are the harlots? Who are the harlot daughters of the Mother? ALL of the churches that were birthed from her; all of her offspring - (i.e. - Protestantism - Eastern Orthodox - and any other well-known denomination you can think of). They all teach the same traditions of men: (eternal torment/annihilation, trinity, pre-tribulation rapture, SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION, free will, etc.). The RCC just happens to be Mom.
You are partially correct. But it is not the RCC exclusively:
And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.
(Revelation 17:5)
The RCC is the MOTHER of Harlots. Who are the harlots? Who are the harlot daughters of the Mother? ALL of the churches that were birthed from her; all of her offspring - (i.e. - Protestantism - Eastern Orthodox - and any other well-known denomination you can think of). They all teach the same traditions of men: (eternal torment/annihilation, trinity, pre-tribulation rapture, SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION, free will, etc.). The RCC just happens to be Mom.
It seems that you are in opposition to everything the Bible teaches. Eternal punishment, the trinity, the pre-tribulational rapture, the seven year Tribulation, and the volition of man are all taught in the Bible.
I have shown you in another thread that the Tribulation will be seven years in length. I have also shown you that contrary to what you believe, the seventieth week of Daniel is still future >> The Mark of The beast(666) DefinedPosts #16, 24, and 28. I have also shown you that contrary to what you have said elsewhere on this forum that no one will die in the new heavens and new earth. You are wrong in saying that the new heavens and new earth are not the eternal state >> The Biblical categories of DeathPost # 34. I have also shown, in this thread, that the rapture is pre-tribulational.
You had better stick to being an astro-physicist. As a self-proclaimed Bible scholar you are seriously lacking in understanding concerning spiritual matters. This is true of all Universalists.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-17-2012 at 02:50 PM..
I have shown you in another thread that the Tribulation will be seven years in length.
No you haven't. Would you like me to cut and paste all of the posts to prove it to you? You pointed me to few Scofield links; a study I can quote by heart, because I used to believe it. Every post you have sent me clearly shows me you have no clue whatsoever to what the 70 weeks is talking about. You don't even know where the Biblical "week" originated. You have no idea what a Jubilee Period is, or how it is the only way to understand the 70 weeks. You don't even know where to begin counting the 70 weeks from, or why that particular year of Artaxerxes is significant. All you do is side-step and say you don't want to discuss it - a convenient excuse. If you want me to take you seriously, then be an honest scholar and discuss the specific details with me yourself. If not, quit being dishonest by bringing up the fact that you showed me, because it's not true. You've shown me nothing, other than; "I don't want to discuss this anymore!" You have also shown me that you are a very dishonest person (although, I would probably try to get out of it myself if I was in your position, having no idea what I was talking about.)
Last edited by Illuin; 07-17-2012 at 03:20 PM..
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