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I agree with much of what you say. I hope I don't come across as someone who believes that works alone save. I don't believe anything alone saves.
You said, "If we strive to merit our salvation by our works, then it is for nought. But if our works are simply an evidence or an outworking of the fact that God has saved us, then it is as it ought to be. In our spirit essence, all we want to do is serve God and do those things that are pleasing to Him. It is our flesh that gives us trouble."
It is the underlined part of what you say that I take issue with. You say that works is the evidence of our being saved. I disagree with that.
Works come before and after salvation, not only after. We cannot lump works into one category. There are the works of God, the ones he ordained, which include faith, repentance, confession, baptism, prayer, love, etc. etc. etc. Abel offered a better sacrifice. What made it better? It was ordained by God. It was a work. Every person we read about in the Bible who was saved/justified/forgiven SHOWED their faith prior to being saved.
I am not suggesting that it was the works in themselves that saved them. They were justified by faith. But the question is what kind of faith? The kind the demons have? What distinguishes our faith from the faith of demons? Our faith is a living, active faith. And every single example you find in the Bible shows people who have active faith. Each does something.
Was Abel trusting in his obedience to save him? Did he think God owed him salvation? Did he consider himself righteous because he did what God asked him to do?
If a person has faith and trusts in God to keep his promises, and shows that faith by obeying what God has commanded him to do, does that mean he is trying to earn his salvation? Does his obedience to his Lord mean he is boasting? Isn't it possible that love is the motivation for obedience?
Back to the topic of the thread, can you find an example of someone being saved who simply believed?
Thanks again for your post.
Katie
I believe you have a clear perspective on this question. There is, indeed, a difference between
Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
KJV
I agree with much of what you say. I hope I don't come across as someone who believes that works alone save. I don't believe anything alone saves.
You said, "If we strive to merit our salvation by our works, then it is for nought. But if our works are simply an evidence or an outworking of the fact that God has saved us, then it is as it ought to be. In our spirit essence, all we want to do is serve God and do those things that are pleasing to Him. It is our flesh that gives us trouble."
It is the underlined part of what you say that I take issue with. You say that works is the evidence of our being saved. I disagree with that.
Works come before and after salvation, not only after. We cannot lump works into one category. There are the works of God, the ones he ordained, which include faith, repentance, confession, baptism, prayer, love, etc. etc. etc. Abel offered a better sacrifice. What made it better? It was ordained by God. It was a work. Every person we read about in the Bible who was saved/justified/forgiven SHOWED their faith prior to being saved.
I am not suggesting that it was the works in themselves that saved them. They were justified by faith. But the question is what kind of faith? The kind the demons have? What distinguishes our faith from the faith of demons? Our faith is a living, active faith. And every single example you find in the Bible shows people who have active faith. Each does something.
Was Abel trusting in his obedience to save him? Did he think God owed him salvation? Did he consider himself righteous because he did what God asked him to do?
If a person has faith and trusts in God to keep his promises, and shows that faith by obeying what God has commanded him to do, does that mean he is trying to earn his salvation? Does his obedience to his Lord mean he is boasting? Isn't it possible that love is the motivation for obedience?
Back to the topic of the thread, can you find an example of someone being saved who simply believed?
Thanks again for your post.
Katie
Please excuse my little mistake there. I went to correct something, and it seems I hit the "submit reply" button by mistake.
I was starting to say that you seem pretty clear on this question. I printed out the text of Galatians 2:16, still not sure if I was going to use it, but it went through, anyway
I can already see that you're aware of what this verse is teaching. The interesting thing about this verse is the use of the Greek "Christou".
The King James renders the phrase "the faith of Christ". If ths is accurate, then it further underscores the idea that it is entirely of God.
We are told we must believe on Christ in order to become saved. As we study the Bible, we find that this effort on our part to believe is entirely wrought by God. In ourselves, we cannot believe on Christ the way God says we must. God must enable us. When Ephesians 2:1 tells us that God made us alive, "who were dead in trespasses and sins", this speaks to how God regenerates a dead sinner and gives him spiritual life so that he now can come to Christ for salvation.
We can see how the apparent action on our part is simply the result of what God has done first to make it possible in the first place. When we take this final step of visibly believing on Christ, we then become "converted".
So you've done well in distinguishing between our works (to attempt to become right with God on our own behalf) and those which God has ordained. It starts out with our belief unto salvation (saving faith, not the "faith" that the demons have...they believe intellectually...they know what's in store for them...but it is not a saving belief, so it really can't be called faith...notice what the demons say to Jesus in Matthew 8:29
Matt 8:28-30 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
So, they believe, alright...but not unto salvation. They just know who Christ is and what their end will be because of Him.
Based on the nature of salvation, we become a new creation in Christ after God gives us a new heart and puts His Spirit within us. Now, in that spirit essence, we want nothing less than to do the will of God. So our obedience to His commandments is not to earn our salvation. It's a demonstration or outworking of what God has done in us, whereby we now want to serve Him, because we love Him.
That is why I made that reference to our works being an evidence. before we are saved, we really don't care much about God. Sure, unsaved man may still display the milk of human kindness. God still restrains sin in the world for His own purpose. But it is not until an individual becomes saved that he will do what he does as "unto the Lord".
Your points are good and they are clear. The only way that I can understand your statement about works coming before salvation would be if these are the "works" that are enabled by the Spirit of God to bring a person to saving faith in Christ. But I don't know if I can say that a person can show "faith" before becoming saved. It may be seen more as a simultaneous ocurrence.
Finally, back to Gal 2:16....when God here tells us that we are justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law, it does show that this faith is what justifies us. So in this sense we are justified by faith, alone. But then we read elsewhere that our faith must be evidenced by our works.
One place in James 2 may serve to explain this a bit:
James 2:20-26
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I see here examples of how faith is shown by what is being called "works"....not works to merit salvation, but works which demonstrate God's saving work in that individual. It is showing one's faith by one's works (James 2:18). So the idea of 'evidences' is probably not foreign to the issue at hand.
I agree with what you say for the most part. The only thing I would take issue with is the use of the term "faith alone." I would agree with you, however, that faith is what initiates the whole process. But then it seems people have different views of what faith is. I believe it is alive and active otherwise it is simply belief, which is exactly what the demons had.
You can believe something exists and not have faith in it.
Quote:
One of the problems I see is that people think that every single thing we do is a work. That, to me, is extreme. For example:
Everything you do, even if it is a process of thought, is a work, the issue is of what nature is what you do and think.
1C 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Do you see what I am saying? It gets to the point of ridiculous.
Yes, it can get ridiculous. A friend of mine, who is a believer, thought it would be great when he got a DJ job at a local Christian radio station because he liked listening to sermons. He found though that after weeks of listening to sermons everyday he found that it would be impossible to follow all of the advise of each and every pastor mainly because one in some instances would contradict another. Not to mention the growing list of things stated we should do from a religious perspective.
If we are actually trying to figure out the right way to believe, all we can ultimatly do is seek that which makes our lives better in the spiritual sense and perhaps along the way help others as best we can. We all know the right path to take for our lives. A big part of faith is taking that step into the unknown and do what is right based on that faith. No offense, but the vast majority of people who argue that we really don't have to do anything, really don't do much at all to make the world around them a better place.
I'd rather be an unbeliever striving to make peoples lives better than a believer comfortable in my own world of complacency who really becomes insignificant. But the key is to do things from the path in your life and not from others who expect things of you from their point of view.
JAA2310;21126781
When Ephesians 2:1 tells us that God made us alive, "who were dead in trespasses and sins", this speaks to how God regenerates a dead sinner and gives him spiritual life so that he now can come to Christ for salvation.
Thank you JAA for your very nice post. I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding you here, so I am asking for clarification if I am reading you wrong.
Are you saying that God makes us alive before He saves us? My understanding of scripture is that we are "made alive" at the time we are saved. That is when we are set free from sin.
Colossians 2: 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the fleshwas put off when you were circumcised byChrist, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
Quote:
That is why I made that reference to our works being an evidence. before we are saved, we really don't care much about God. Sure, unsaved man may still display the milk of human kindness. God still restrains sin in the world for His own purpose. But it is not until an individual becomes saved that he will do what he does as "unto the Lord".
I disagree with you. Works are not just evidence of a person who is already saved. There are works ordained (commanded) by God which take place prior to salvation/justification/forgiveness of sins. This is evidenced by the many examples given to us throughout the Bible.
Think about Abram for a moment. Do you think Abram had no good works before he was declared righteous in Genesis 15:6? Do you think he didn't care much about God before that? Was he just displaying the milk of human kindness? Abram obeyed God in all things right from the time we first meet him in Genesis 12. In Genesis 15:1, "After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.†Could God have said this to a lost Abram, an unforgiven Abram?
I think we need to have a good working definition of what faith is exactly. I realize Hebrews 11:1 tells us what it is. But what are the aspects of faith? I don't believe it is just simply believing. I believe it is living, active and obedient. That is the kind of faith that pleases God. That is the kind of faith spoken of in Hebrews 11. And it comes by hearing the word of God. (Rom. 10:17)
IMHO, faith is the catalyst which spurs one into action of some sort, whether that be making the decision to believe in Christ, to repent, to confess Him before men, to be baptized, to pray, to sing praises, etc. etc. etc. (all works ordained by God, not men). Faith and the expressions or a show of faith are inseparable. They occur simultaneously.
Can you give me a Bible example of someone who was saved by faith alone?
So you agree that anything we do is a work, whether it's breathing, confessing our sins, praying, etc. etc. Can we lump all work into one category? When Paul said, "not of works," did he mean all works? What about the works of God? Does he exclude those as well?
Also, how do you define faith? Can it be separated from the things we do?
Katie, God knows our heart. He saves us when we believe. I don't think there is a specific Bible passage you're looking for. You will need to 'read between the lines' so to speak.
Romans 10: 1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”a6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’b” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’c” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”e12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f
We are saved by God's Grace.
That is, Of their own accord, simply having Faith in God or in His Son Jesus will not get you into Heaven. Neither will living a good life and performing good works. God has to grant you Grace, which He may or may not do, even if you follow all the "rules." I know most people do not want to believe this, it's human nature. After all, there is so much more comfort in thinking that praying to Jesus and telling Him He's your Lord & Savior automatically grants you a free pass through the Pearly Gates.
Doubt me? Well, a good example of this "discriminatory" practice of God's can be found in the story of Moses. Look at all the Good Works he did, and the enduring faith he had. Yet, he wasn't even allowed to cross into the Promised Land. For some reason, God's Grace was not bestowed upon him.
Yeah, It's a shame that no one really knows what His true criteria is, so I guess all we can do is try our best to live a good life. In my opinion, following Jesus' example is our best bet.
This idea of "Unconditional Selection" isn't mine, by the way; I just happen to subscribe to it. It was first proposed--or at least popularized--by Jean Calvin, one of the Protestant reformationists of the 16th century, along with Martin Luther.
Peace Out, hombres.
Last edited by DrummerBoy; 10-03-2011 at 12:10 PM..
So you agree that anything we do is a work, whether it's breathing, confessing our sins, praying, etc. etc. Can we lump all work into one category? When Paul said, "not of works," did he mean all works? What about the works of God? Does he exclude those as well?
Also, how do you define faith? Can it be separated from the things we do?
Katie
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. (Romans 10:17)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)
Without faith first, it is impossible to please God. This means anything we do (works) before we have faith, is not pleasing God.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”e and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2)
Justification is by faith. True faith is God's work (John 6:28-29), granted by God (John 1:29), and is concurrent with regeneration (2 Cor. 5:17), which God works in us by his will (John 1:13). This result of this justification and regeneration is that the sinner turns from his sin and towards doing good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor sustain it. Jesus accomplished all that we need to be saved and stay saved on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross; this is why the Bible says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.
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