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I can understand why you think that but take another look. If I might guess, you might be are referring to what Jesus said, "You did not choose Me but I chose you." but it is also written, "Many are called but few are chosen." The choice only comes when He calls because it is only of His ability to grant repentance and the will to follow but many refuse when they are given the will to do so. He doesn't call in vain even though they reject because as faithful Creator he is obligated to be fair to all.
PROV 1:24 "Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded;
PROV 1:25 But you have set at naught all My counsel, and would none of my reproof:
PROV 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
PROV 1:27 When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
PROV 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
PROV 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:"
Where in the Scriptures does it state that He is obligated to be fair to all?...
It sounds like you have the right defintion for foreknowledge, but your conclusions based on that definition are totally unconnected with the definition and therefore invalid.
I know I have the correct definition and applcation...You cannot prove my conclusions wrong...
I find the definition you have laid out to be a great comfort -- to know that God who is GOOD is in control of a Divine Plan that He has fore-ordained. What could be more comforting, particularly in times when we are confused, afraid, etc... of the unknown - then we trust His Heart and His Plan. BTW, God's divine Plan includes both great joy and great trials for everyone. Neat, huh!
Very good understanding, Heartsong...I tried to rep you for that but couldn't...It is indeed a comfort that when trials hit that you can let go and let Hawyaw...Knowing that everthing is in His Plan and that nothing is arbitrary...'I declare the end from the beginning, and those things from ancient times not yet done'...
No, it is only when they are persistently and willfully disregard Gods warnings over and over. But that was not the point I was making. It was about choice. The other just happens to be a part of those Scriptures. Regarding your point, Jesus was and is ambivalent of nature [the mixture of two thoughts on a matter]. He is angry with sin all day long because it hurts the innocent but His arm is out stretched still to save, the Scripture says.
Ambivalence does not mean contradictory of nature but rather complex of nature as we all are, but with Him it is perfectly balanced. We are made in His image and therefore experience similar feelings and thoughts, howbeit unbalanced often times. The ambivalence of Scripture is probably why you have a hard time agreeing with a lot of Scripture. An example of the ambivalence of Christ was when He was angry [not tender] with the Pharisees because He has to let them and us know how He feels about their ways but in the next breath He remembered that they were just mortal and showed mercy to them. Mercy triumphed over final judgment in this case. It is the goodness of the Lord that leads to repentance but it is also written, "My Spirit will not always strive with man [to save] because he is also flesh. And as you know a fleshly nature can not inherit the Kingdom of God because the carnal mind is not capable of the Spiritual things of God. "You must be born again"
Hmmm...Let's take the rest of that:
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
It has nothing to do with Salvation...It has to do with the fact that Hawyaw is in control of everything, even the number of years we live...
I'd like to point out that the Greek verb for fitted reads in the Greek as 'having been fitted' for destruction...Which implies that they were made for that purpose...For how shall the vessels of Mercy really understand what has been done for them unless there is something to compare it to...I offer you $100 and others $5...Unless you know the value of money, you do not really know or appreciate it...
This is correct. In fact, the literal translation that I often look at does render v.22, "having been fitted out for destruction".
We sometimes get a bit careless in our understanding and try to become sovereign in these matters, when it is God who is sovereign and in charge.
It is only a tough read if you do not compare it to other Scripture to get the full perspective. He is long suffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. In the mean time God suffers with them as He did with us and if they do not repent they are fitted to destruction. Those who do not repent when called, He hardens. Those who are hardened are lead away from the church lest they be a needless thorn. He made them even though He knows the end result, but He gives all a genuine open door to salvation. It only proves free will when called and equal opportunity to salvation.
I completely agree that we must compare Scripture with Scripture before arriving at a doctrinal conclusion.
Your reference to 2 Peter 3:9 is understandable, but the verse is actually speaking about those to whom this promise applies. Let's look at it:
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
We see throughout the New Testament that only those who come to Christ for salvation are promised salvation. And only those whom God has elected for this purpose will come to Christ.
I try to emphasize that the real issue is the fact that by nature we are dead in trespasses and sins, and therefore cannot properly receive Gospel truth, to where we come to Christ as we are told that we must.
Many will acknowledge that we have to become regenerated, and that we must receive a new heart. But the same people feel that this happens after we "accept" Christ. If we must be born again, or "born from above", wouldn't this precede any response that might appear to come from us? If we are "dead", how can we "hear" this message if we've not yet been made alive to hear it? It's kind of like putting the cart before the horse.
But if we see God as being completely sovereign, knowing that we can do nothing apart from His divine intervention, we will then be sure to give Him all the glory, and not credit our free will with ultimately making the right choice, where our neighbor simply made the wrong choice.
I have to go now. But I have one more thing to share later that I hope will be helpful.
Oh, I could, but I just don't think it's worth it to try. Suffice it to say I think you're not right in your conclusions.
The reason that you do not want to try is that you know you can't and so do I...
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BTW, God's divine Plan includes both great joy and great trials for everyone. Neat, huh!
