How does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit? (priests, Matthew)
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Then you throw out, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Which brings us right back to the evil doctrine of unconditional election, which you seem to ascribe to.
Tell me Richard, do you really believe that God predestinates some for heaven and others to hell?
Katie
I only can tell you what the Word says about it...Not what someone else says on the subject because they can't handle Truth so they 'spin' it another way...The Letters AND Scripture says that He predestines, Elects, Chooses...Which would mean someone is NOT Elected, Someone is NOT chosen...Otherwise, why use those terms?...Choice is selecting between two or more things...Elect is those who have been chosen...And these are all predetermined which is what predestination is...To decree or ordain beforehand...
Prove from scripture that Election is not unconditional...
If you believe that men are predestinated to heaven, then you also believe they are predestinated to hell. What a terrible statement for anyone to make. It is destructive and diabolical.
Listen to the apostle Peter, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and - to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
In light of those verses, how can you say some people are predestined to heaven and others to hell?
God never predestinated a man to hell. He desires to save ALL men here and now.
Look at Ephesians. Paul is talking to christians here, the saved, the church, the body of Christ. He is not predestinating individuals to heaven or hell.
4According as he hath chosen US in him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated US unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Who do you think Paul is talking about here? Individuals who God predestines to heaven or hell? No, he is talking to and about the CHURCH, the body of Christ, those who have obeyed the gospel, those who are born again believers. If a man is not saved or born of the Spirit, he does not belong to the church, which is His body.
The work of the Holy Spirit is to bring men into the church. How does He accomplish this? Through His word. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The book of Ephesians is dealing with the body of Christ, the corporate group. He is not speaking of us as individual believers.
Verse 4 is telling us that before the foundation of the world, God decided He would have a church. He decided that that church would have its foundation, "in Him." This was a Sovereign act of God.
Paul was not dealing with the individual believer in this book, but with a corporate group, known as the Church. In Ephesians 1:5 He has predestinated the Church unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
God is not here deciding the Destination of individuals as individuals, but is telling us that before the foundation of the world He had decided the destination of the church, the corporate group.
Nowhere in the scriptures do we ever read that God predestines a man to hell. The burden of proof is not on me. It is on you. So where are the scriptures that say such a thing? Where are we taught unconditional election?
I only can tell you what the Word says about it...Not what someone else says on the subject because they can't handle Truth so they 'spin' it another way...The Letters AND Scripture says that He predestines, Elects, Chooses...Which would mean someone is NOT Elected, Someone is NOT chosen...Otherwise, why use those terms?...Choice is selecting between two or more things...Elect is those who have been chosen...And these are all predetermined which is what predestination is...To decree or ordain beforehand...
You haven't given me one scripture that shows that God predestines a man to hell.
I gave you two scriptures that clearly show that God wants ALL men to be saved. There is nothing in those scriptures to spin.
Here are two more scriptures that show man is not predestined to heaven or hell. He has a choice to accept or reject the Lord.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Revelation 22: 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
What part of "let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life" don't you agree with? What part of "whosoever believes in him" don't you agree with?
Where is your proof that God predestines man to hell?
It just occured to me that you do not have a clear understanding of predestination.
Paul's writings can be hard to understand, but guess what? The more you study them, the easier they become. I have spent years on Romans, and I still have questions about a couple verses, but one thing I know from studying Paul. We are not saved by faith alone, which is what the protestant world teaches.
People spend too much time reading the opinions of others and following the doctrines of men instead of studying God's word. Think about it. How much time do you spend reading commentaries, creeds, articles, etc. compared to the actual word of God? I'm not making a judgement against you personally, (I'm talking people in general) but there are so many doctrines out there that could not have come from the study of God's word. They had to have been learned by listening to men. Take the doctrine of faith alone saves. Nowhere does the Bible say you are saved by faith alone. It says we are saved by faith, amongst other things. But Augustine, and then Calvin 1000 years later said this is how men are saved. Look at the number of people who believe this.
IMHO, people don't trust in the Bible enough or in the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. Instead they put their trust in what men have to say.
I believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says. It's not that difficult.
Katie
So your saying doctrine isn't important?
On a side note, the Church gave us Scripture, its our Book. We read Scripture every day, Old and New Testaments. But I am interested in your response to the above.
If you believe that men are predestinated to heaven, then you also believe they are predestinated to hell. What a terrible statement for anyone to make. It is destructive and diabolical.
This is exactly what the UR folks state....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Listen to the apostle Peter, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
To us-ward...Who is this US he is speaking of?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and - to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
Hmmm...What of women and children?...
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
In light of those verses, how can you say some people are predestined to heaven and others to hell?
God never predestinated a man to hell. He desires to save ALL men here and now.
Look at Ephesians. Paul is talking to christians here, the saved, the church, the body of Christ. He is not predestinating individuals to heaven or hell.
4According as he hath chosen US in him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated US unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Who do you think Paul is talking about here? Individuals who God predestines to heaven or hell? No, he is talking to and about the CHURCH, the body of Christ, those who have obeyed the gospel, those who are born again believers. If a man is not saved or born of the Spirit, he does not belong to the church, which is His body.
You do not understand the concept of predestination...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Verse 4 is telling us that before the foundation of the world, God decided He would have a church. He decided that that church would have its foundation, "in Him." This was a Sovereign act of God.
Paul was not dealing with the individual believer in this book, but with a corporate group, known as the Church. In Ephesians 1:5 He has predestinated the Church unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
The church?....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
God is not here deciding the Destination of individuals as individuals, but is telling us that before the foundation of the world He had decided the destination of the church, the corporate group.
Nowhere in the scriptures do we ever read that God predestines a man to hell. The burden of proof is not on me. It is on you. So where are the scriptures that say such a thing? Where are we taught unconditional election?
On a side note, the Church gave us Scripture, its our Book. We read Scripture every day, Old and New Testaments. But I am interested in your response to the above.
I am saying the doctrines of men are not only unimportant, they are wrong.
Richard1965;21500246]This is exactly what the UR folks state....
To us-ward...Who is this US he is speaking of?...
I am not UR, and I don't really care what they state. I'm still waiting for you to give me a scripture that says God predestines some to hell.
The US in Ephesians is the collective body, the saved, the saints, the church. That is who Paul is writing to. He is writing to those "in Christ," which you seem to be ignoring.
Not one of the scriptures you quoted proves that God predestines man to hell.
I have given you scriptures that show God wanting ALL men to be saved. I have also given you, " 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."
So tell me, is Paul not speaking to those who are "IN CHRIST" in Ephesians?
Does Jesus want ALL men to be saved?
Do the Spirit and the Bride say, "COME! Let the one who is thirsty come; and LET THE ONE WHO WISHES TAKE THE FREE GIFT OF LIFE?"
You asked me to provide proof. I have given you scriptures. You have given me nothing to prove that God destines man to hell. And you never will because there aren't any.
You do not understand predestination as it is written in the Bible. What you understand is Calvin's take on it.
God predestined before the beginning of the world to set up a church through his Son's sacrifice, and those who belonged to the church would be blessed, honored, called, chosen, adopted, loved, and redeemed. Membership in the group would be by those willing to believe and obey Jesus so they are said to be “in him” and “conformed to his likeness”.
God predestined before the beginning of the world to set up a church through his Son's sacrifice, and those who belonged to the church would be blessed, honored, called, chosen, adopted, loved, and redeemed. Membership in the group would be by those willing to believe and obey Jesus so they are said to be “in him” and “conformed to his likeness”.
Katie
Ok, Katie me girl...Where is this stated in Scripture?...You are ignoring Romans...
I am saying the doctrines of men are not only unimportant, they are wrong.
The only true doctrine is the doctrine of Christ.
Katie
What is the doctrine of Christ?
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