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Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they love Him? Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they believe and trust in His promises (Hebrews 5:9, Acts 5:32)
For me, when I first came to believe, all I wanted to do was please God by doing whatever He asked me to do. Is that wrong?
God clearly states how one can recieve the "Gift":
“Repent and bebaptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
The "gift" of the Holy Spirit is faith ... not the it's a ritual. Minimizing baptism to a just ritual is denigrating the means of grace. That is the heresy.
Another hersey claim is that people can't lose his\her faith.
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Revelation 2:4-5
I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place
" If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place" .......... not only can a person lose his faith, that person is damned.
And what's more, that person's punishment will be more severe than those from Sodom who never had the light.
I do not have the time right now to tell you on how many levels that whet you said is so wrong...
Paul was baptized to have his sins washed away. Sin separates us from God, so Paul couldn't possibly have been saved until his sins were washed away.
But I see we digress. Have you found an example of someone from the Bible who was saved by faith alone, without works? No one seems to be able to provide an example.
I gave you an example in another post with no response. Here it is again:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Paul unequivocally states he was "saved" (past tense) in Christ before the world began. No faith on Paul's part, no works on Paul's part, no baptism and no confession are attributed to Paul's being saved. Not one thing was contributed by Paul to his being "saved". In this particular instance, the term "saved" is being used as an exclusive act of God upon the Apostle Paul (or rather "us") without Paul's knowledge, approval or interaction therewith. And it happened before the world began.
And, Paul states that this "power of God" (2 Tim 1:8) "who saved us" was "made manifest" by the appearing of Jesus through the Gospel:
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
The Greek word that we translate as "manifest" is φανερόω and simply means to make known, make visible and to make apparent. It should be obvious to anyone reading this that something can not be "made manifest" unless it already exists, albeit previously hidden or unknown to the one it is being made manifest to.
Do you believe what Paul wrote here, and can you reconcile these scriptures with your doctrine that states Paul "couldn't possibly have been saved" (to quote you) until being baptized?
Gary, do you believe we have to be baptized to be saved? To have our sins washed away? Do you see baptism as a work done to earn salvation?
Katie
No it is not a work to earn salvation. It is believing in Christ and out of love doing what He said. Many do not have the privilege to be baptized such as the thief on the cross or those on their death bed, in the nursing homes and other dire circumstances and they are saved but we are not of them and we need to heed what Jesus says to us who are able in all things.
No matter what Jesus says and you do not do it, how can you be saved. It is His gift to give in what ever way he wants, whether with baptism or not but most times it is with baptism. He told Abraham to go sacrifice his son and he went to do it and was justified by his faith and with obedience to prove it. Had he not obeyed, he would not be the father of faith that he became. All through scripture the ones who were saved were the ones who believed what God said and then did it. The work was of God and not of themselves. That is the bottom line.
There should be no great theological debate here. Only believe and do what He says. Theologians have destroyed the simplicity of the Gospel like the Pharisees and lawyers of old did. They did not hear the Spirit and they did not obey.
I do not for one minute believe faith, repentance, confession and baptism are things done to earn grace.
Katie
It's quite obvious you do from reading all previous posts of yours Katie. You continually support the idea that faith plus something (in your case baptism) earns your standing before God. It is faith in His Grace towards us that makes our faith effectual(Living)
That the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. Philemon 1:6
His grace is something we also grow in,as we acknowledge it in our lives.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3:18
Of course, both predestination and election are being spoken of in the passage.
My point to Kmg is that the term "saved", when used in the scriptures, is often viewed from two different perspectives. One perspective being heavenly (such as predestination, election, calling, justification, regeneration, glorification, etc.) and the other one earthly (faith, imputed righteousness, sanctification, etc.). How we view and see (the earthly perspective, if you will) the unfolding of God's redemptive plan is not the same perspective as the heavenly. It's important to understand from which perspective the scriptures are shining the light from (heavenly or earthly) when the term "saved" is being discussed in the scriptures.
Prove from scripture that Election is not unconditional...
The Bible teaches that God predestines or chooses by name certain individuals to eternal salvation, but He does so only on the basis of His foreknowledge or precognition that these individuals will meet the conditions for salvation as set forth in His Word. He knows who will choose Him, but he doesn't make them choose Him.
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