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I completely agree with you that the tongues thing is a BIG FAKE. I also agree with you that God speaks to us through our consciences. /quote]
This is something I personally know about. What you say about speaking in tongues is not completely true. Yes, there are some churches in which speaking in tongues is fakery, even "taught" which is something that cannot be done.
However, there is also genuine speaking in tongues. Those who lead a Godly life are able to discern the difference.
Even within a church in which there is genuine speaking in tongues, there is also fakery by some, but not all. Discernment is the key.
--Yokie
However, with the limited examples we have of tongues speaking in the NT, Tongues was a recognizable earthly language, not gibberish...No where in the NT is there an example of gibberish that no one could understand...There is no such thing as a personal prayer language...
However, with the limited examples we have of tongues speaking in the NT, Tongues was a recognizable earthly language, not gibberish...No where in the NT is there an example of gibberish that no one could understand...There is no such thing as a personal prayer language...
1COR 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Would you understand the tongue of an Angel? It would sound like gibberish no doubt to our ears.
1COR 14:2 For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirithe speaketh mysteries. Sounds like to me that there are tonques as on the day of Penticost that could be undestood and there are tongues that no man understands, therefore a personal prayer lanquage or in other words the tougue of an Angel. 1COR 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
According to Yahushua, first you absolutely must repent of sin and be water baptized for the remission of sins, and then He will baptize you into His Holy Spirit. But, remember He also said that we recieve the Holy Spirit by "asking for it". If we want the Holy Spirit we must pray for it, ourselves. It is the will of God that we search for Him like hidden treasures and for His Holy Spirit's annointing in our life. Once your born again, if you don't continue to pray for this you will not be saved. You will continue to live in sin and without even realizing it you will be totally blind to Spiritual things and you will be walking in the flesh. That's very dangerous, especially in these days. Try this, spend the next week waking up every single morning, crying out for more of God's presence in your life... if your born again... and see what happens. Begin to show God how much you love Him by crying out to Him.
Please show scripture to back up what you are stating....
Rich, I already explained to you that baptism was not required under the old Law. The thief lived and died under the old Law. Jesus didn't command baptism until after He arose from the dead. The thief was already dead by then. Are you intentionally ignoring that? Is there some part of this you disagree with?
Katie
Jeshua said during His ministry to believe and be baptized...That was before He went to the Cross...So, if baptism is an integral part of Salvation and one cannot be saved without it then that means that the thief is not saved either...OR...People are misunderstanding what was meant in the Letters...
Yes, Jesus sent me. I came down from heaven to do the will of my Father. "I know the Lord and I keep His words".
You speak like the world which shows you belong to the world.Scripture says that those who are sent by God they speak the words of God.
The works I do in my Fathers name bear witness for me but you do not want to come to me to possess those works.
"The son of man will come at a time you least expect".
My teaching is not my own it comes from the one who sent me.
Whoever chooses to do his will shall know about this teaching namely, whether it comes from God or whether I‘m speaking on my own.
Whoever speaks on his own seeks his own glory, but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him is truthful, and there is no dishonesty in his heart.
Stop judging by appearances, judge justly.
Yet I did not come on my own, the one who is true sent me, Him you do not know. I know him, because I come from him, he’s the one who sent me.
Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink.
Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: Rivers of living water will flow from within him.
You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world. That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
If you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I only say what the Lord has taught me.
For the one who sent me is with me. He has not deserted me, because I always do what pleases him.
If you carry on in my words, you are truly be my disciple,
then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
If the son frees you,you will truly be free.
Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth, who have observed his law; Seek justice, seek humility; perhaps you may be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.
1COR 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Would you understand the tongue of an Angel? It would sound like gibberish no doubt to our ears.
1COR 14:2 For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirithe speaketh mysteries. Sounds like to me that there are tonques as on the day of Penticost that could be undestood and there are tongues that no man understands, therefore a personal prayer lanquage or in other words the tougue of an Angel. 1COR 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
So, then I should not be able to hear you if you are keeping it to yourself...and to Hawyaw...The Greek word for Though has a sense of 'even if'...The majority of what I see and hear is contrived...But do you see the emphasis that Paul is stating in his letter?...
Bravo on that last statement of yours. It is what I am saying but you can not discern that it is exactly what I am saying. "Believe and be baptized" or in other words, belief is what saves you and baptism is a part of discipleship. Jesus said it but did not get into the theology of it and for the most part neither did I. I only repeated what He said. So please, do not fault me for that.
I have always known that Grace through faith is what saves you and me. I teach that always and I thought I made that clear. Discipleship through Grace however is required as you stated after salvation and baptism and any thing else that Christ asked of you is a part of discipleship. As I stated before, water does not wash away sin. Only the blood and Grace bestowed does. My position only is that because people make lite of it, I defend baptism and simply say if you believe in Christ unto salvation then have faith also in what He said; go get baptized. If you find fault in that, then I am through talking to you. You lack decernment in a lot of what people are saying.
To the contrary. I understand what you are saying, but you misunderstand what I said. The following is your statement in post #62.
''God knew that they would obey unto baptism and more and so granted them salvation. Baptism is for many the first work that shows you have repented and for others it comes later. If the Acts 10 people did not get baptized then it would have shown disobedience and they would have become unlawful to Christs lawful commands. It is written, "The Spirit is given to those who obey" and in another place "Jesus did not commit Himself to certain ones even though they believed because He knew the hearts of all men."
It is written, "Why call Me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say." Faith is void if you do not obey. Of coarse water of itself does not wash away sins, only the blood does that, But it is the faith coupled by obeying that does. You will be judged by your works, not Faith on the day of judgment because faith without works is dead. Your works inspired of the Spirit will tell the story. "I may have faith to remove mountains but if I do not have love [that obeys] then I am nothing"
You clearly state that you believe that the reason that God granted salvation to the Gentile believers in Acts 10:42-48 before they were baptized in water is because God knew that they would 'obey unto baptism and more'. You link obedience with belief in Christ as the criteria for salvation.
Now, I will be clear. Lordship salvation is a HERESY. Obedience is NOT a criteria for salvation. EXCEPT THE ONE COMMAND THAT THE UNBELIEVER CAN OBEY. The command to obey the gospel which simply means to believe in Christ. You cannot impose the obedience which is necessary for the believer to be a disciple on the unbeliever whose only obedience can be to believe in Christ. God does not grant salvation on the basis of whether a believer will obey Him after believing in Christ. God gives eternal salvation as a free gift ONLY on the basis of faith in the Person and work of Christ on the Cross.
Disobedience on the part of the believer after salvation results in divine discipline, and a loss of blessing in both time and eternity. It does not result in a loss of eternal salvation.
Eternal salvation is a matter of faith in Jesus Christ totally devoid of any works.
But discipleship after salvation requires obedience.
Every disciple of Christ is a believer, but not every believer is a disciple. Every believer is eternally saved whether he is a disciple or not.
Your statement "The Spirit is given to those who obey" refers to Acts 5:32 ''And so we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.''
You assume that that statement refers to obeying the command to among other things, being baptised in water. But it does not. The word 'obey' is translated from the Greek word 'peitharcheó' which means...
From a compound of peitho and archo; to be persuaded by a ruler, i.e. (genitive case) to submit to authority; by analogy, to conform to advice -- hearken, obey (magistrates).
With regard to receiving eternal life, the word 'obey' refers to simply being persuaded by the gospel message under the common grace ministry of God the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that salvation is only possible because of His finished work on the cross.
To disobey in the context of eternal salvation means to refuse to be persuaded - to refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.
When Jesus was asked what the works (PLURAL) of God were that they might be done for salvation, Jesus replied that there was only one work (SINGULAR) of God for salvation. TO BELIEVE IN HIM. TO BE PERSUADED THAT HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS. A person who desires an eternal relationship with God will be persuaded by the gospel message. A person who does not desire an eternal relationship with God will refuse to be persuaded. He will refuse to believe in Christ - to place his faith in Christ.
John 6:27 'Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal.''
28] They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may work the works (erga - PLURAL) of God?''
29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work (ergon - SINGULAR) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''
The Jews to whom Jesus was speaking mistakenly thought that there were certain works of God which they had to do for eternal salvation. Jesus corrected their misconception by telling them that there was ONLY one work of God which they must do for eternal life. And that one work which was non-meritorius, was to simply believe in Him. To obey the gospel message in being persuaded that He was the Messiah. Not to be baptized in water, and not anything else. Simply believe in Him.
Once again. Lordship salvation is nothing other than salvation by works and is a heresy. You are not eternally saved by obedience to the commands of Jesus. You are eternally saved by obeying the one command the unbeliever can obey. To be persuaded that Jesus Christ is the one who did all the work necessary to provide salvation for those who will believe in Him.
To the contrary. I understand what you are saying, but you misunderstand what I said. The following is your statement in post #62.
''God knew that they would obey unto baptism and more and so granted them salvation. Baptism is for many the first work that shows you have repented and for others it comes later. If the Acts 10 people did not get baptized then it would have shown disobedience and they would have become unlawful to Christs lawful commands. It is written, "The Spirit is given to those who obey" and in another place "Jesus did not commit Himself to certain ones even though they believed because He knew the hearts of all men."
It is written, "Why call Me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say." Faith is void if you do not obey. Of coarse water of itself does not wash away sins, only the blood does that, But it is the faith coupled by obeying that does. You will be judged by your works, not Faith on the day of judgment because faith without works is dead. Your works inspired of the Spirit will tell the story. "I may have faith to remove mountains but if I do not have love [that obeys] then I am nothing"
You clearly state that you believe that the reason that God granted salvation to the Gentile believers in Acts 10:42-48 before they were baptized in water is because God knew that they would 'obey unto baptism and more'. You link obedience with belief in Christ as the criteria for salvation.
Now, I will be clear. Lordship salvation is a HERESY. Obedience is NOT a criteria for salvation. EXCEPT THE ONE COMMAND THAT THE UNBELIEVER CAN OBEY. The command to obey the gospel which simply means to believe in Christ. You cannot impose the obedience which is necessary for the believer to be a disciple on the unbeliever whose only obedience can be to believe in Christ. God does not grant salvation on the basis of whether a believer will obey Him after believing in Christ. God gives eternal salvation as a free gift ONLY on the basis of faith in the Person and work of Christ on the Cross.
Disobedience on the part of the believer after salvation results in divine discipline, and a loss of blessing in both time and eternity. It does not result in a loss of eternal salvation.
Eternal salvation is a matter of faith in Jesus Christ totally devoid of any works.
But discipleship after salvation requires obedience.
Every disciple of Christ is a believer, but not every believer is a disciple. Every believer is eternally saved whether he is a disciple or not.
Your statement "The Spirit is given to those who obey" refers to Acts 5:32 ''And so we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.''
You assume that that statement refers to obeying the command to among other things, being baptised in water. But it does not. The word 'obey' is translated from the Greek word 'peitharcheó' which means...
From a compound of peitho and archo; to be persuaded by a ruler, i.e. (genitive case) to submit to authority; by analogy, to conform to advice -- hearken, obey (magistrates).
With regard to receiving eternal life, the word 'obey' refers to simply being persuaded by the gospel message under the common grace ministry of God the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that salvation is only possible because of His finished work on the cross.
To disobey in the context of eternal salvation means to refuse to be persuaded - to refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.
When Jesus was asked what the works (PLURAL) of God were that they might be done for salvation, Jesus replied that there was only one work (SINGULAR) of God for salvation. TO BELIEVE IN HIM. TO BE PERSUADED THAT HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS. A person who desires an eternal relationship with God will be persuaded by the gospel message. A person who does not desire an eternal relationship with God will refuse to be persuaded. He will refuse to believe in Christ - to place his faith in Christ.
John 6:27 'Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal.''
28] They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may work the works (erga - PLURAL) of God?''
29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work (ergon - SINGULAR) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''
The Jews to whom Jesus was speaking mistakenly thought that there were certain works of God which they had to do for eternal salvation. Jesus corrected their misconception by telling them that there was ONLY one work of God which they must do for eternal life. And that one work which was non-meritorius, was to simply believe in Him. To obey the gospel message in being persuaded that He was the Messiah. Not to be baptized in water, and not anything else. Simply believe in Him.
Once again. Lordship salvation is nothing other than salvation by works and is a heresy. You are not eternally saved by obedience to the commands of Jesus. You are eternally saved by obeying the one command the unbeliever can obey. To be persuaded that Jesus Christ is the one who did all the work necessary to provide salvation for those who will believe in Him.
JN 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
JN 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because He knew all men,
JN 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."
"Why call Me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say"
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JK
