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The son of man will give you the Holy spirit if you walk in his ways and judge justly.
"Keep the ways of the Lord by doing what is right and just".
"All those who do right will rise to live.The evildoer's will rise to be damned."
"The wicked will remain wicked they will have no understanding but the wise will have it."
'Offer to God praise as a sacrifice and fulfill your vows to the most high, then call upon me in your time of distress and I shall rescue you and you shall glorify me".
Those are not my words but the words of the Lord who sent me.I am son of man. I came down from heaven to do his will not my own. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching, namely whether it comes from God or I'm merely speaking on my own.
Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
The problem I'm seeing is that you and others who teach faith alone saves, cannot seem to separate the works of the Law of Moses, and the works of men (devised by men), from the works ordained by God. Works ordained by God include faith, repentance, declaring with your mouth that "Jesus is Lord," baptism, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc. These works cannot be included in "not by works" in the Eph. 2:9 scripture. If they are, then you have to throw out faith because it is a work of God.
Faith alone does save...Works are a result of Faith by regeneration, not a requirement...This is where many confuse the works resulting from Faith and the works resulting from a feeling of obligation...Paul said 'Confess Jeshua as Lord and believe in your heart that Hawyaw has raised Him from the dead and you shall be saved...No prerequisites and no postrequisites...Katie, If you feel obligated to do good works for your Salvation and they do not flow from a pure heart and desire, then you might want to examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith...
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
These are not works done by man to earn salvation. They are works commanded by God, which He prepared in advance for us to do.
There is not one single example in all of the Bible, which shows a person being saved by faith alone. Genuine faith always results in works, whether it is PRIOR to initial salvation or after.
Abraham...David...Noah...Paul...etc.
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Genuine faith always results in works.
This is what I have been trying to tell you...And I believe it is also what Mike was trying to get through to you...
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
We are justified by faith and works, not by faith alone.
This just contradicts what you have said above...
Last edited by Richard1965; 10-23-2011 at 05:32 PM..
I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star. I am the first and I am the last, the One who lives, once I died but now I live forever and ever.
If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sins.
If only you recognized Gods gift, and who it is that’s writing to you, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty the water I give him shall be like a well inside him rising up to provide eternal life.
The Lord says this;
"Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.
They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; let there be honesty and peace in the judgments at your gates".
Jesus sent me. We are One.I am the lion of the tribe of Judah. I hold the key of David. A key that opens and no one can close, a key the closes and no one can open.
Perhaps it would have been better to say, that He takes the law out of the way from condemning you when He shows mercy and if not then you would have to pay the penalty for breaking it. The law is still is in effect till heaven and earth pass away but taken out of the way from condemning us. Mercy triumphs over the strict requirements of the law till love establishes them in the heart more and more by the Spirit.
The thief on the cross was not able to go and be baptized so it was no requirement for him to "believe and be baptized" but believe only.
ROM:8 "Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we aredelivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star. I am the first and I am the last, the One who lives, once I died but now I live forever and ever.
If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sins.
If only you recognized Gods gift, and who it is that’s writing to you, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty the water I give him shall be like a well inside him rising up to provide eternal life.
The Lord says this;
"Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.
They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; let there be honesty and peace in the judgments at your gates".
Jesus sent me. We are One.I am the lion of the tribe of Judah. I hold the key of David. A key that opens and no one can close, a key the closes and no one can open.
My family name means 'Lion of Judah'...If you are truly who you say you are then your grammar and spelling would be immpeccable...Jesus sent you?...Please!...First you speak as the Messiah then you say that Jeshua sent you...
Faith alone does save...Works are a result of Faith by regeneration, not a requirement...This is where many confuse the works resulting from Faith and the works resulting from a feeling of obligation...Paul said 'Confess Jeshua as Lord and believe in your heart that Hawyaw has raised Him from the dead and you shall be saved...No prerequisites and no postrequisites...Katie, If you feel obligated to do good works for your Salvation and they do not flow from a pure heart and desire, then you might want to examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith...
Abraham...David...Noah...Paul...etc.
This is what I have been trying to tell you...And I believe it is also what Mike was trying to get through to you...
Perhaps it would have been better to say, that He takes the law out of the way from condemning you when He shows mercy and if not then you would have to pay the penalty for breaking it. The law is still is in effect till heaven and earth pass away but taken out of the way from condemning us. Mercy triumphs over the strict requirements of the law till love establishes them in the heart more and more by the Spirit.
The thief on the cross was not able to go and be baptized so it was no requirement for him to "believe and be baptized" but believe only.
Jeshua would not set up requirements and then violate them...
Now here, Katie departs from her claim that to be saved you don't have to do the works of men, but only what SHE considers to be the works of God.
Katie considers the works of God to be: faith, repentance, declaring with your mouth "Jesus is Lord, baptism, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc.
These are works of God, commanded by Him, created by Him. These are not works of men. Works of men would be things commanded by men. No one will be saved without obedience to these commands of God.
Now Katie would like to know if Mike considers all of the aforementioned works to be works of men? Or does he agree that they are works of God?
Quote:
James is clearly talking about works such as supplying clothing and food to those who need it (James 2:15). In appealing to James she now claims that you have to do works of men, to be saved.
James is speaking of far more than supplying food and clothing to those who need it. Read on.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James is teaching what genuine faith is. It is a faith that always results in works. A PERSON refers to all people, not just christians. Now you might say Abraham had already been justified, but Rahab, the prostitute certainly was not. She was an unforgiven, alien sinner. She wasn't considered righteous until she gave lodging to the spies. Rahab had genuine faith which resulted in WORKS.
Quote:
I have explained what James meant by 'dead faith' in the following thread.
No need for you to explain. People on the forum are smart enough to figure out what dead faith is by reading James. It's pretty clear. He says,
DEAD FAITH = NO WORKS
FAITH ALONE = DEAD FAITH
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
It all says the same thing!
Quote:
Katie claims that in post #46, I said that Peter was talking to unbelievers and that I said that 'baptism now saves you -1 Peter 3:21, does not refer to water baptism. Here is what I said in post #46. Notice the word 'believers'. Notice the words 'water baptism.'
'He taught in 1 Peter 3:21 that being baptized would save from a bad conscience. Peter exhorted the 1st century believers to have the courage to commit themselves to a course of action by taking a public stand for Christ through water baptism. The act of public baptism would save them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution which the 1st century Christian often faced.'
So much for Katies claim.
You are suggesting that the people who Peter was writing to in 1 Peter had never been baptized. IMPOSSIBLE!! RIDICULOUS!!
1st Peter was written to "the elect." These are christians. How could you ever suggest that "the elect" were not baptized? Christians are baptized believers. Read the book of Acts. It's loaded with examples of those who became christians. Those who believed and were baptized became christians.
To become a disciple one MUST be baptized. Jesus said, 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Quote:
Katie also refers to Bible translations to try to strengthen her argument that Acts 2:38 proves salvation by water baptism.
Here is a portion of the study note from the NASB Study Bible on Acts 2:38.
'for the forgiveness of your sins. Not that baptism effects forgiveness. Rather, forgiveness comes through that which is symbolized by baptism (see Rom 6:3-4 and note).
Katie doesn't refer people to articles. She refers them to the Bible. Katie just wants people to read the scriptures for themselves, and draw their conclusions from the plain and simple language of the passages.
Katie would like Mike to post his Greek Language expert credentials for all posters to see. Maybe he could post his English language expert credentials at the same time.
Quote:
Regarding Mark 16:16 ''He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'
Katie is wondering why Mike is so dependent on all of these articles written by others. Katie thinks Mike spends too much time on articles and not enough in the word of God.
Quote:
As for what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:17, 'For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...' Paul makes a distinction between the gospel, which is the good news concerning what Christ did on the cross for sinful man, and water baptism which is a ritual which pictures what took place at salvation. Water baptism is not part of the gospel. No one is saved through water baptism.
I refer readers to the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 1, beginning at verse 10. The context will let you know why Paul makes the statement in verse 17. Paul is addressing the problem of division. He does not want anyone identifying themselves with him. He doesn't want anyone saying, "I follow Paul."
Paul was sent to preach the gospel. That was a far more important calling that baptizing people. Any christian could do the baptizing. But not just anyone could do the preaching.
Paul was baptized to have his sins washed away. Acts 22:16
I don't see anything written in 1 Cor. 1 where Paul minimizes the importance of baptism itself.
How could anyone who claims to be a christian ever believe that Paul, the apostle chosen by Jesus, would tell people that baptism wasn't important? If he even so much as suggested such a thing, then he would be contradicting the command of Jesus to be baptized.
I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star. I am the first and I am the last, the One who lives, once I died but now I live forever and ever.
If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sins.
If only you recognized Gods gift, and who it is that’s writing to you, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty the water I give him shall be like a well inside him rising up to provide eternal life.
The Lord says this;
"Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.
They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; let there be honesty and peace in the judgments at your gates".
Jesus sent me. We are One.I am the lion of the tribe of Judah. I hold the key of David. A key that opens and no one can close, a key the closes and no one can open.
You are not the Messiah, you are not God and you are not a Prophet.
Katie considers the works of God to be: faith, repentance, declaring with your mouth "Jesus is Lord, baptism, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc.
These are works of God, commanded by Him, created by Him. These are not works of men. Works of men would be things commanded by men.
James is speaking of far more than supplying food and clothing to those who need it. Read on.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James is teaching what genuine faith is. It is a faith that always results in works. A PERSON refers to all people, not just christians. Now you might say Abraham had already been justified, but Rahab, the prostitute certainly was not. She was an unforgiven, alien sinner. She wasn't considered righteous until she gave lodging to the spies. Rahab had genuine faith which resulted in WORKS.
No need for you to explain. People on the forum are smart enough to figure out what dead faith is by reading James. It's pretty clear. He says,
DEAD FAITH = NO WORKS
FAITH ALONE = DEAD FAITH
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
It all says the same thing!
You are suggesting that the people who Peter was writing to in 1 Peter had never been baptized. IMPOSSIBLE!! RIDICULOUS!!
1st Peter was written to "the elect." These are christians. How could you ever suggest that "the elect" were not baptized? Christians are baptized believers. Read the book of Acts. It's loaded with examples of those who became christians. Those who believed and were baptized became christians.
To become a disciple one MUST be baptized. Jesus said, 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Katie doesn't refer people to articles. She refers them to the Bible. Katie just wants people to read the scriptures for themselves, and draw their conclusions from the plain and simple language of the passages.
Katie would like Mike to post his Greek Language expert credentials for all posters to see. Maybe he could post his English language expert credentials at the same time.
Katie is wondering why Mike is so dependent on all of these articles written by others. Katie thinks Mike spends too much time on articles and not enough in the word of God.
I refer readers to the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 1, beginning at verse 10. The context will let you know why Paul makes the statement in verse 17. Paul is addressing the problem of division. He does not want anyone identifying themselves with him. He doesn't want anyone saying, "I follow Paul."
Paul was sent to preach the gospel. That was a far more important calling that baptizing people. Any christian could do the baptizing. But not just anyone could do the preaching.
Paul was baptized to have his sins washed away. Acts 22:16
I don't see anything written in 1 Cor. 1 where Paul minimizes the importance of baptism itself.
How could anyone who claims to be a christian ever believe that Paul, the apostle chosen by Jesus, would tell people that baptism wasn't important? If he even so much as suggested such a thing, then he would be contradicting the command of Jesus to be baptized.
Katie
No one is minimizing the importance of baptism...but what you are saying is the same as the Judaisers said that Faith AND Circumcision AND following the Law are what will save you...Here, early on, we have another sect of people attempting to add to the Gospel...Just as whoever led you into this belief of baptism has...
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