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Nike555, could you clarify what legalist means for the Corinthians as much as the Romans? Is the principle that we are comited to the understanding of irresponsible excuses here and there similar? Thank you.
A person either understands that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, or he tries to work and earn your salvation. If you try to work for your salvation you are simply working yourself deeper and deeper into a dept you can never pay. Those who work for eternal salvation are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. Eternal life is offered only as a free gift which is received through faith alone. If you are trusting in your works, then you are not trusting only in the work of Christ which results in no salvation.
Those who say that you must be baptized in water in order to be saved from eternal condemnation are teaching a false gospel and misleading others. The issue of what is required for salvation has to be understood.
You are just complicating things and accusing me and others of false doctrine. I did not say trust in your works but in the work of Christ. All your talk leads only to the conclusion; why bother doing what Christ said because that would be a work and God forbid that should be, as it would lead to damnation. You really need to put away theology and encourage people to believe and do what Jesus said and let Him work out the details [intents]of the heart with the individual.
1COR 4:5 'Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels [intents of genuine faith or not] of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." You wrangle over these points to no end but it says to judge nothing of the intent. If you want to be an oracle of God then just say what Jesus said and let Him sort it out.
The only issue to be understood is: believe what Jesus said and do it. It is God who speaks directly to the heart by His very own command. The person will demonstrate his faith to God if he obeys and will be rewarded. I did not say you are working for salvation but to simply believe what Jesus said. You are putting words in my mouth and I resent it. You seem to want to give theological debate before any one can be saved. God knows if a person is ready or not and what He said was so simple. It is to be believed on, obeyed, without theological debate and deserves repeating. Theology is the curse of this world but believing and obeying what God says is its salvation.
You are just complicating things and accusing me and others of false doctrine. I did not say trust in your works but in the work of Christ. All your talk leads only to the conclusion; why bother doing what Christ said because that would be a work and God forbid that should be, as it would lead to damnation. You really need to put away theology and encourage people to believe and do what Jesus said and let Him work out the details [intents]of the heart with the individual.
1COR 4:5 'Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels [intents of genuine faith or not] of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." You wrangle over these points to no end but it says to judge nothing of the intent. If you want to be an oracle of God then just say what Jesus said and let Him sort it out.
The only issue to be understood is: believe what Jesus said and do it. It is God who speaks directly to the heart by His very own command. The person will demonstrate his faith to God if he obeys and will be rewarded. I did not say you are working for salvation but to simply believe what Jesus said. You are putting words in my mouth and I resent it. You seem to want to give theological debate before any one can be saved. God knows if a person is ready or not and what He said was so simple. It is to be believed on, obeyed, without theological debate and deserves repeating. Theology is the curse of this world but believing and obeying what God says is its salvation.
Reference is to post #48.
It is not complcated at all. It is quite simple. Receive the free gift of eternal salvation in the only way in which God offers it. Though faith alone in Christ alone, or attempt to work your way to heaven and end up in the lake of fire.
If water baptism is considered by someone as necessary for eternal salvation, then in undergoing that ritual they are working for their salvation. Water baptism is to be understood only as a ritual which symbolizes what took place at the moment of salvation. It is a public testimony to personal faith in Christ. What a person believes matters if they are going to be saved.
Legalists cannot seem to distinquish between what is neccessary for eternal salvation and what is neccessary to be a disciple of Christ after salvation.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-22-2011 at 09:11 PM..
It is not complcated at all. It is quite simple. Receive the free gift of eternal salvation in the only way in which God offers it. Though faith alone in Christ alone, or attempt to work your way to heaven and end up in the lake of fire.
If water baptism is considered by someone as necessary for eternal salvation, then in undergoing that ritual they are working for their salvation. Water baptism is to be understood only as a ritual which symbolizes what took place at the moment of salvation. It is a public testimony to personal faith in Christ. What a person believes matters if they are going to be saved.
Legalists cannot seem to distinguish between what is necessary for eternal salvation and what is necessary to be a disciple of Christ after salvation.
According to you, so are you a legalist?
Strictly adhering to the law of prescription?
Especially, to the letter rather than the Spirit?
What Mike doesn't seem to grasp is that Baptism is not man's work but God's. In Baptism, God acts to save the one who is baptized. Remember Jesus Baptism. The HOly Spirit is given an alights on Jesus. The Father looks down on Jesus and says, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. This is what Peter promises on Pentecost; that if the listeners, repent, and are baptized, they will receive forgiveness for their sins and the HOly Spirit. Not only this, but in Baptism God makes them a child of God, and they are bonded to Christ Himself.
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Ro 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
The result is that God gives those baptized faith to believe because no one can believe without the work of the Holy Spirit..1 Corinthians 12:3 and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Conversion therefore is not a decision of man, (which would be a work), but God's work to save because God predestined , called , justified and sanctified those who he has chosen.
Jn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it has been given him from the Father.
Katie, you've been putting on some very good answers but I think you are missing on the doctrine of original sin. Unless you know of one, I have never heard anyone claim that they can find a text that claims an age of accountability in the Bible. The reason it doesn't is that everyone is born in sin. People die because of sin. Babies die because they too are born in sin. Its inherited from their parents. There are many texts that teach the sinfulness of children.
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Every Christian parent knows their children are sinners. They start disobeying their parents early when they start saying NO. That is sin.
Not only that but Children to be sinless would have to be born knowing God, having faith and love for God or they are guilty of Idolatry, that is breaking the first commandment. But they are not born knowing this. They have to be taught.
The last point I want to make Katie is that babies can believe. Note the following text.
Mt 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones WHO BELIEVE IN ME to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Lk 18:16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Lk 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." The only way anyone can be part of God's kingdom is by faith, therefore it seems consistent with scripture that babies can have faith that God gives through the power of the Holy Spirit through God's word.
It helps to remember that from the beginning of the Christian church, infant baptism was practiced. It is still practiced in the majority of Christian churches in the world. The practice of infant baptism was never seriously challenged until after the beginning of the reformation.
What Mike doesn't seem to grasp is that Baptism is not man's work but God's. In Baptism, God acts to save the one who is baptized. Remember Jesus Baptism. The HOly Spirit is given an alights on Jesus. The Father looks down on Jesus and says, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. This is what Peter promises on Pentecost; that if the listeners, repent, and are baptized, they will receive forgiveness for their sins and the HOly Spirit. Not only this, but in Baptism God makes them a child of God, and they are bonded to Christ Himself.
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Ro 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
The result is that God gives those baptized faith to believe because no one can believe without the work of the Holy Spirit..1 Corinthians 12:3 and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Conversion therefore is not a decision of man, (which would be a work), but God's work to save because God predestined , called , justified and sanctified those who he has chosen.
Jn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it has been given him from the Father.
Katie, you've been putting on some very good answers but I think you are missing on the doctrine of original sin. Unless you know of one, I have never heard anyone claim that they can find a text that claims an age of accountability in the Bible. The reason it doesn't is that everyone is born in sin. People die because of sin. Babies die because they too are born in sin. Its inherited from their parents. There are many texts that teach the sinfulness of children.
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Every Christian parent knows their children are sinners. They start disobeying their parents early when they start saying NO. That is sin.
Not only that but Children to be sinless would have to be born knowing God, having faith and love for God or they are guilty of Idolatry, that is breaking the first commandment. But they are not born knowing this. They have to be taught.
The last point I want to make Katie is that babies can believe. Note the following text.
Mt 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones WHO BELIEVE IN ME to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Lk 18:16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Lk 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." The only way anyone can be part of God's kingdom is by faith, therefore it seems consistent with scripture that babies can have faith that God gives through the power of the Holy Spirit through God's word.
It helps to remember that from the beginning of the Christian church, infant baptism was practiced. It is still practiced in the majority of Christian churches in the world. The practice of infant baptism was never seriously challenged until after the beginning of the reformation.
Water baptism is not a work of God. It is a ritual only.
Refer to Acts 10:43-48 where Peter gives the gospel to a group of Gentiles who then believe in Christ, are forgiven their sins, receive the Holy Spirit, and then and only then does Peter tell them to be baptized in water.
Jesus' water baptism was not the same as the Christians water baptism. Also, Jesus was not in need of salvation.
There is no other way to become a disciple of Jesus unless the command to be immersed in water is followed. Becoming a disciple by being immersed in water and being born of water and Spirit are one and the same being commanded by one and the same, Jesus Christ.
Katie
I really don't think literal water baptism is what the scriptures mean about [being "born of water" and of the Spirit]. I think the water is the Word and the Spirit is the Holy Fire that purifies. It's truly all spiritual in the end.
Water baptism is not a work of God. It is a ritual only.
Refer to Acts 10:43-48 where Peter gives the gospel to a group of Gentiles who then believe in Christ, are forgiven their sins, receive the Holy Spirit, and then and only then does Peter tell them to be baptized in water.
Jesus' water baptism was not the same as the Christians water baptism. Also, Jesus was not in need of salvation.
Distinquish between real baptisms and ritual baptisms.
Baptism is a mighty act of the triune God in which he washes away sin and creates saving faith, and sinners are born again as children of God and become living members of Christ's spiritual body, the church.
Saving faith is not a matter of a human being expressing intellectual or volitional decisions about God, but a matter of God changing hearts and destinies by his power and in love.
Through Baptism the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith and brings the gifts of forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation (Titus 3:4-7, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38-39).
When Peter told the gathered crowd, "Repent and be baptized." He also said, "The promise is for you and your children" (Acts 2:38-39). Children were included in the command and promise Peter spoke. St. Paul draws a parallel between Old Testament circumcision and Baptism (Colossians 2:11-12). Babies in the Old Testament were to be circumcised on the eighth day after birth.
Saving faith is not a matter of a human being expressing intellectual or volitional decisions about God, but a matter of God changing hearts and destinies by his power and in love.
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