Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:08 AM
 
939 posts, read 1,025,528 times
Reputation: 111

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well stated.

Well stated.
Not surprised a mormon agrees with the catholic...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:11 AM
 
939 posts, read 1,025,528 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Of course. Have you ever READ James?
Yes. And James agrees that it's faith alone--but not faith that is alone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:16 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,776,568 times
Reputation: 191
Have you only read CCC 2010, or the surrounding material as well?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:18 AM
 
939 posts, read 1,025,528 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Have you only read CCC 2010, or the surrounding material as well?
Why? Does it say 2010 is a lie?

I can give you a couple more from the general area:

CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."


CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."



These statements go directly against the writings of Paul that we are saved apart from Works of the Law.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:20 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,776,568 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
Why? Does it say 2010 is a lie?
No, but explains your misunderstanding of it.

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:46 AM
 
939 posts, read 1,025,528 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
No, but explains your misunderstanding of it.

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.


The passage quoted here from your catechism lays out the teaching of infused righteousness. Basically, God infuses in you the ability to do good works, thereby earning salvation.

That is not how Paul taught we are saved. Paul taught imputed righteousness---meaning we are given Christ's righteousness. We don't need to earn our own.


Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

James agreed with him. We don't get merely the ability to earn our salvation--we are given Righteousness.

Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:52 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,776,568 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
The passage quoted here from your catechism lays out the teaching of infused righteousness. Basically, God infuses in you the ability to do good works, thereby earning salvation.

That is not how Paul taught we are saved. Paul taught imputed righteousness---meaning we are given Christ's righteousness. We don't need to earn our own.


Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

James agreed with him. We don't get merely the ability to earn our salvation--we are given Righteousness.

Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
I really have to go for now. I've been on the computer too long this morning as it is. I have to go study. But I'll leave you with this for now.

Scripture Catholic - JUSTIFICATION
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:53 AM
 
939 posts, read 1,025,528 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
I really have to go for now. I've been on the computer too long this morning as it is. I have to go study. But I'll leave you with this for now.

Scripture Catholic - JUSTIFICATION
that's heresy that directly contradicts scripture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,500,276 times
Reputation: 1320
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Hebrews 10:38
"But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back,I will not be pleased with him.”
Paul in Hebrews 10:38 is quoting God from Hab. 2:3,4.
"if he shrinks back" ... is to reject my righteous one will live by faith"
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are save"
Paul specifically claims that those who adhere to "by faith" (Hebrews 10:38) are the ones who will be saved.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. James is emphasing the fact Jesus also taught that a light hidden under a basket is not correct either when he wrote "faith without works is dead".
A true faith is light that shines, meaning that faith is pro-active. A faith that God looks for shows itself in how we treat one another, how we will deny ourself to our "rights" for the sake of somebody else; how we live, act, speak.

We are only saved because of Christ works that perfectly filled the demand which is offered freely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:55 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,776,568 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
that's heresy that directly contradicts scripture.
Yes...using scipture, to contradict scipture. That makes perfect sense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:23 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top