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I don't think we can single out Catholic history as being the only Christian history where great wrongs were done in the name of the Church.
First of all, you are a little confused. I am not Catholic and never have been, so I won't be leaving the Catholic Church, since I'm not in it in the first place!
Secondly, I'm guessing by your name that you are younger than I am. (My generation had Kathys, not Katies.) Age alone is not a synonym for Wisdom, of course, but there is nothing you can possibly say about this subject that I haven't heard before. I've been working on this for decades and I'm not at the place I'm in on my spiritual journey because I think I know all the answers.
I was raised to believe as you do, that the Bible is the infallible word of God, etc., and that the Catholic Church is wrong. LOL, I can remembering being in my 20's and being skeeved to no end the first time I attended a Catholic wedding and saw the couple kneel before a statue of Mary! Now it wouldn't bother me--I know they are not worshipping the statue. Reason prevails.
Not believing all scripture is God-breathed is not a matter of choice. It's a matter of reason and intelligence. The Bible is a collection of books of poetry, history, prophecies, Gospel, and letters written over many centuries, sometimes with a POV of the world from times and places that no longer exist today. They are bound together because of church history and perhaps by the will of God, and they are rich and useful in knowing about God and about directing our lives, but there is far more to God than can be found in the written word. Believing in the bible as infallible is limiting.
I don't claim to know everything, but I do have enough sense to know that I don't know everything, either. I know what I've seen so far. I know lifelong Roman Catholics who say the Hail Mary and pray for their dead family members in Purgatory who walk closer to the way Christ did than most non-Catholics I know. I know biblical-infallibility believers who are walking alongside them.
It's interesting to me to learn others' points of view on the multi-faceted crystal of Christian beliefs. There is one belief in common, however, that God sent his Son to die on the cross to redeem humanity. Does the rest of it really matter other than as interesting conversation from which we can learn from one another? Is it worth fighting over?
I remember asking a Catholic friend--one of those who I mention above as walking close to Christ in the way she lives her life--where Catholics got things like Purgatory or the Immaculate Conception from. She didn't know. This devout Irish Catholic woman had absolutely no clue as to why her church believed what it did.
So, I found out for myself. I went to the Catholic bookstore at the church near where I worked (St. Peter's in lower Manhattan--oldest Catholic parish in NYC), and I bought a book by the Catholic apologist Karl Keating. The book was written specifically to aid Catholics in answering fundamentalists who disparaged their church, Catholics like my friend who didn't know the exact answers.
The book was fascinating and not defensive or offensive at all. When I finished, I did not accept all the reasonings and doctrines as valid, but I understood why the Church teaches as it does.
The author, in his forward, makes a great statement. He says that people think they hate the Catholic Church, when in reality they hate what they think the Catholic Church is.
Here's the link to the book. I think it can do nothing but expand one's mind and level of knowledge about one's fellow Christians.
EDIT: To answer your specific question, Katie: "I ask with all due respect, who are you to pick and choose which scriptures are correct, and which are not?" It is presumptuous to assume that I AM "picking and choosing" which scriptures are correct and which are not. That is not the point at all, and is rather simplified a concept. Yes, in some cases you can decide if a scripture is "correct" if you really need to use that term. I am a person who has some powers of discernment, intelligence, and education, so I can know that there is no dome over the earth, that a man from a certain time and place writing that women shouldn't cut their hair or speak in church is saying this from a cultural POV, and that the term "Forty days and forty nights" probably does not actually mean that specific length of time any more than our modern expression, "it took him a year and a day" means a year and a day.
Those are easy passages to explain. Most of the Bible must be read and reread and sometimes a passage read for twenty years may not take on meaning to me until one day, it does. It fits, the light has turned on, and it comes through as God's words. What those words mean to ME, however, might not be what they mean to YOU. God speaks to us individually. I cannot tell you how I experience God anymore than you can tell me how you experience God. If you (collective you, not personally) start spouting verses, or typing them ad nauseum into forum posts the way so many people do, claiming to do it out of love with no evidence of love to be seen in their zeal to be right, the Bible, and the person doing the spouting, become nothing more than the clanging gongs or banging cymbals Paul refers to in Corinthians. Now there's one verse I find to be absolutely true.
Fantastic post.
Let's say someone wrote these words 100 years ago:
"I never said you stole money."
Anyone you asked would say they understood the meaning of that short, six word sentence. But do they? Do they really understand what meaning the writer intended 100 years ago?
The writer of that sentence might have meant "I never said you stole money", implying someone else said it.
Or perhaps he meant "I never said you stole money." He thought it, he suspected it, but he never said it.
Or maybe "I never said you stole money." He said your neighbor stole it.
Or, "I never said you stole money." He means that you lost it, or squandered it, or did something else with it that he didn't approve of, but you didn't steal it.
Or, "I never said you stole money." Maybe you stole his horse, or shoes, not his money.
This shows how easy it is to derive several legitimate but very different meanings from this short, six word sentence. Think how easily the Bible can be misinterpreted.
When Christ said i will give YOU the keys to the Kingdom of heaven he was talking to all of the apostles because he said in the gospel of John that all would believe on him through the apostles doctrine.
The keys we're not physical keys to a building they we're the Gospel. The doctrin that would come from God through the Holy spirit to the apostles.
God is the only one that can add you to His Church.
He does so when you Obey his Gospel.
The catholic church was however the first denomination.
The church didn't start in the NT. How do we know this? Moses belonged to the 'church' [ekklesia=called out ones].
Acts 7:
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
The church, the called out ones, was referred to as the assembly or the congregation in the OT.
I think it's rather arrogant of anyone to say their 'church' is THE church and to exclude the OT saints from being among God's called out ones.
Yes, I did miss it. Responding to it below now.
I don't think we can single out Catholic history as being the only Christian history where great wrongs were done in the name of the Church.
First of all, you are a little confused. I am not Catholic and never have been, so I won't be leaving the Catholic Church, since I'm not in it in the first place!
Secondly, I'm guessing by your name that you are younger than I am. (My generation had Kathys, not Katies.) Age alone is not a synonym for Wisdom, of course, but there is nothing you can possibly say about this subject that I haven't heard before. I've been working on this for decades and I'm not at the place I'm in on my spiritual journey because I think I know all the answers.
I was raised to believe as you do, that the Bible is the infallible word of God, etc., and that the Catholic Church is wrong. LOL, I can remembering being in my 20's and being skeeved to no end the first time I attended a Catholic wedding and saw the couple kneel before a statue of Mary! Now it wouldn't bother me--I know they are not worshipping the statue. Reason prevails.
Not believing all scripture is God-breathed is not a matter of choice. It's a matter of reason and intelligence. The Bible is a collection of books of poetry, history, prophecies, Gospel, and letters written over many centuries, sometimes with a POV of the world from times and places that no longer exist today. They are bound together because of church history and perhaps by the will of God, and they are rich and useful in knowing about God and about directing our lives, but there is far more to God than can be found in the written word. Believing in the bible as infallible is limiting.
I don't claim to know everything, but I do have enough sense to know that I don't know everything, either. I know what I've seen so far. I know lifelong Roman Catholics who say the Hail Mary and pray for their dead family members in Purgatory who walk closer to the way Christ did than most non-Catholics I know. I know biblical-infallibility believers who are walking alongside them.
It's interesting to me to learn others' points of view on the multi-faceted crystal of Christian beliefs. There is one belief in common, however, that God sent his Son to die on the cross to redeem humanity. Does the rest of it really matter other than as interesting conversation from which we can learn from one another? Is it worth fighting over?
I remember asking a Catholic friend--one of those who I mention above as walking close to Christ in the way she lives her life--where Catholics got things like Purgatory or the Immaculate Conception from. She didn't know. This devout Irish Catholic woman had absolutely no clue as to why her church believed what it did.
So, I found out for myself. I went to the Catholic bookstore at the church near where I worked (St. Peter's in lower Manhattan--oldest Catholic parish in NYC), and I bought a book by the Catholic apologist Karl Keating. The book was written specifically to aid Catholics in answering fundamentalists who disparaged their church, Catholics like my friend who didn't know the exact answers.
The book was fascinating and not defensive or offensive at all. When I finished, I did not accept all the reasonings and doctrines as valid, but I understood why the Church teaches as it does.
The author, in his forward, makes a great statement. He says that peoplethink they hate the Catholic Church, when in reality they hate what they think the Catholic Church is.
Here's the link to the book. I think it can do nothing but expand one's mind and level of knowledge about one's fellow Christians. Amazon.com: Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians" (0008987017752): Karl Keating: Books
EDIT: To answer your specific question, Katie: "I ask with all due respect, who are you to pick and choose which scriptures are correct, and which are not?" It is presumptuous to assume that I AM "picking and choosing" which scriptures are correct and which are not. That is not the point at all, and is rather simplified a concept. Yes, in some cases you can decide if a scripture is "correct" if you really need to use that term. I am a person who has some powers of discernment, intelligence, and education, so I can know that there is no dome over the earth, that a man from a certain time and place writing that women shouldn't cut their hair or speak in church is saying this from a cultural POV, and that the term "Forty days and forty nights" probably does not actually mean that specific length of time any more than our modern expression, "it took him a year and a day" means a year and a day.
Those are easy passages to explain. Most of the Bible must be read and reread and sometimes a passage read for twenty years may not take on meaning to me until one day, it does. It fits, the light has turned on, and it comes through as God's words. What those words mean to ME, however, might not be what they mean to YOU. God speaks to us individually. I cannot tell you how I experience God anymore than you can tell me how you experience God. If you (collective you, not personally) start spouting verses, or typing them ad nauseum into forum posts the way so many people do, claiming to do it out of love with no evidence of love to be seen in their zeal to be right, the Bible, and the person doing the spouting, become nothing more than the clanging gongs or banging cymbals Paul refers to in Corinthians. Now there's one verse I find to be absolutely true.
Hello Mighty Queen,
Thank you so much for your post. It explains a whole lot. This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree with most of what you said.
Thanks for thinking I'm young. Oh how I wish!! I am actually a retired school teacher (math 7th grade). I am currently doing a long term sub for the gal who took my place when I retired. She just had a baby. So I'm back in the classroom for the next 4-6 weeks.
I was born and raised catholic. I went to catholic school, and was taught catholic doctrine throughout my childhood. I have always had a facination and love for God's word. When I left home, I began reading the Bible and discovered on my own many discrepancies between God's word and what I'd been taught in my youth. I can honestly say that I was never a disgruntled catholic. I just reached a point in my life where I had to make a choice. Believe the doctrines/traditions of the catholic church or believe the word of God. They are soooooooooo different.
I hope I never come across on the forum as a know it all, or as an I have all of the answers, because I don't. I am still learning, and there is nothing I love more than learning God's word. I try hard not to be condescending on the forum. If I ever come across that way, please do let me know. I will always cite scriptures to support what I say, otherwise I am giving nothing but my opinion.
You said there is more history besides catholic history. WOW!! You are so right about that. I have been delving into early church history, and it is facinating.
Sorry for assuming you were catholic. My bad! It was just the impression I had from reading one of your posts.
By the way, I know many wonderful catholic folks. Some are in my family. But no matter which way you cut it, their religion is wrong. It goes against the word of God in so many ways. Unlike you, I do believe that the Bible is God's ispired, infallible word. We cannot pick and choose verses we like, and then ignore the rest. Either we accept it all, or throw it all out, otherwise everything becomes chaos, and everyone does what they want to do. That is not the way it was intended by Jesus. He wanted us to be ONE. He wanted UNITY.
Anyway.......
Hope we can be friends. I would love to continue hearing your thoughts.
Mat_16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.
G3772
ουρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
Might be meant through the symbolism of 'a key' that thorough understanding is being given even of the Mysteries in order for him to establish the Body of Jeshua...We might have to look at it in the context of a Hebrew Idiom...There are a plethora of them throughout the Letters...
G2807
κλείς
kleis
klice
From G2808; a key (as shutting a lock), literally or figuratively: - key.
Here are the keys to the Kingdom. JN 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me.
My Pastor is a former RCC. He is "born again" and a very good man who went from ritual to relationship to God as his testimony goes.
Some former Catholics truly despice Catholicism. They do not enjoy the tradition and rituals. Otoh, folks like me relish the tradition and rituals.. We are all different.
Some former Catholics truly despice Catholicism. They do not enjoy the tradition and rituals. Otoh, folks like me relish the tradition and rituals.. We are all different.
I have yet to meet a "former RCC" who actually had a solid understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches.
The tradition and rituals are beautiful, espicially when you truely understand the Biblical inspiration behind them.
Some former Catholics truly despice Catholicism. They do not enjoy the tradition and rituals. Otoh, folks like me relish the tradition and rituals.. We are all different.
Traditions and ritual indeed have beautiful meanings but they are not relational as in knowing God first hand by His Spirit, like you know your children, wife or girlfriend perhaps. The real thing is always more rewarding than let's say a picture of them or a letter from them.
I have yet to meet a "former RCC" who actually had a solid understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches.
The tradition and rituals are beautiful, espicially when you truely understand the Biblical inspiration behind them.
Hogwash!!
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