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You have never said anything that should have been prefaced with IMO that I know of.
I am not disagreeing with anything you said. I am completely with you. I don't think we will be judged by what we believe. That's all I was trying to say. As for ME, I need to be more careful to preface everything with IMO. I wasn't suggesting that you had done that.
Sorry if you misunderstood. No criticism intended.
God Bless,
Katie
No, no, no! That's not how I took it at all. I know your heart is in the right place. I also know you and I agree about Jesus being God. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't said something I shouldn't have.
I appreciate your kind heart Katie! Sometimes the internet can be a bad thing, when communicating. Can't really read how one's tone or intentions are.
I don't think you get what I'm saying. You can quote every scripture that refers to Jesus as God, and I will agree with you.
All I'm asking is, is there scripture that says one must believe Jesus is God in order to be saved, or is there only the scripture that says one must believe Jesus is Lord to be saved?
If believing Jesus is God is so important, wouldn't that scripture have said, he that confesses with his mouth Jesus is God...?
If there is no scripture that actually says this, but you're saying common sense says that since scripture shows Jesus is God, and salvation comes through Jesus, then one must believe Jesus is God to be saved... I can deal with that.
I was just wondering if there is scripture that actually says something to the effect of, you must believe Jesus is God in order to be saved.
mzjamiedawn, Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 44:8 Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Jesus (who even the JW's say Jesus never sinned) said he is the fullfilment of the OT.
compare Acts 4:12 to Isaiah 45:22
compare 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 to Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 44:8 is the truth
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 and Acts 4:12 is the truth
Either Jesus is decieved or Paul is decieved or the non-trinitarians are.
I doublt Jesus would decieved or Paul would be.
It is a given that God only saves ... and since Jesus is God (1 Corinthians 10:3-4 and Acts 4:12 ), then one can only be saved by believing that Jesus is God.
I'll give it a whirl... 1. Since you translate John 1:1 as the Word was a god, do you believe Jesus is a god? If so, how do you deal with that fact? If not, then what does this scripture mean? The answer lies in the scriptures
John 10:34- 38 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? (Quoting Psalms 82:6) If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
First, Jesus never called himself "God", instead " the "Son of God". Since the Jews were charging him with blaspheming, Jesus was pointing out that even the law in which they put their faith, called others gods. Jesus, however stated many times in this account that every work that he had done he had done in his father's name, & that he was sent by his father. The Jews just didn't want to accept it...they had already made up their minds.
How I "deal" with this fact of Jesus being "a god" is the account in Exodus 4:10-17. 15 & 16 specifically: And you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou shalt be to him as God.
This demonstrates, IMHO, how Jesus can be instructed by God and act as "a god" to people. He's leading the way...we look to Jesus for every step toward pure and absolute worship toward the Father, Jehovah.
Honestly, with this explanation, I really don't see your belief as being very far from a trinitarian belief. You believe the Father is God. You believe Jesus is His Son, and that He is a god...
Quote:
2. Jesus was worshiped while on the earth. Did He deserve it? Does He deserve it now?
Quote:
Matthew 4:10- "Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God (Jehovah) and him only shall you serve.'" (Quoting Deut 5:9, 6:13, Joshua 24:14)
Since Jesus is Jehovah's appointed King, and his followers heard the voice out of Heaven identifying him as, "My Son, the beloved; I have approved you.", who wouldn't bow down and revere him. I believe there is a distinction between giving exclusive worship, sacred service, and whole souled devotion toward Jehovah, and bowing in reverence towards the one that Jehovah sent forth. If Jehovah says, "This is my Son. Listen to him, follow him.", then in exclusive devotion and obedience to Jehovah, you BET I'll do it!
So you do worship Jesus? Sorry, I'm confused.
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3. Since the Watchtower used to teach that it was ok for Jesus to be worshiped, but changed their mind in the 1950s, what happens to all the Witnesses before then that worshiped Jesus?
Quote:
After going back and looking through the indexes, I don't see that teaching at all. Every reference about worship seems to be consistent with what I posted above. If I'm incorrect, and there was some adjustment made then I appreciate the adjustment toward more accurate knowledge. If there was an adjustment, what would happen if others worshipped Jesus?...it's not up to anyone to say. Jehovah has given the authority to judge salvation to Jesus alone (John 5:25-30).
Hopefully, I was articulate enough to get my points across.
What I have found within the Watchtower's teachings, is that they specifically would say it was ok to worship Jesus, and one should, but then changed around the 50's to say no it isn't. I could post a bunch, here are two:
Worship Jesus:
"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower1939 Nov. 15 p.339
"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower1945 Oct 15 p.313
Do not worship Jesus:
"Should we worship Jesus?
Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven.
Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God's only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Even now when we kneel in prayer, as Paul did according to Ephesians 3:14-19, we offer prayer in the name of Jesus Christ in obedience to his own directions (John 15:16; 16:23-26), but the prayer itself is addressed, not to Jesus, but to God his Father. In this way we keep things in their relative positions." Watchtower1954 Jan 1 p.31
"Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is God, or at least the second person of the triune God, do not like to have Jehovah's witnesses say that it is unscriptural for worshipers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ" Watchtower1964 Nov 1 p.671
mzjamiedawn, Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 44:8 Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Jesus (who even the JW's say Jesus never sinned) said he is the fullfilment of the OT.
compare Acts 4:12 to Isaiah 45:22
compare 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 to Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 44:8 is the truth
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 and Acts 4:12 is the truth
Either Jesus is decieved or Paul is decieved or the non-trinitarians are.
I doublt Jesus would decieved or Paul would be.
It is a given that God only saves ... and since Jesus is God (1 Corinthians 10:3-4 and Acts 4:12 ), then one can only be saved by believing that Jesus is God.
Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from now. Thank you.
So you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe in God, believe Jesus is the Son of God, and live their lives as best as they know how, are not saved?
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
makahiya,
It is my understanding (and probably why no one else has quoted this verse in here yet), that this verse did not come into existence until the 16th century. It can't be found in Greek manuscripts.
It is my understanding (and probably why no one else has quoted this verse in here yet), that this verse did not come into existence until the 16th century. It can't be found in Greek manuscripts.
It is in the Beza Greek N.T. text of the KJV Holy Bible which
is based upon the majority textus receptus line of manuscripts.
Roman Catholics promote English translations of Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Alexandrian Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, while Bible Baptists promote the English KJV translation of the reconstructed Syrian Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Syrian Textus Receptus manuscripts.
While all Protestant denominations originally promoted KJV Bibles prior to 1881 (RV), today they promote Alexandrian Bibles.
The central critical fact remains that while the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture on earth and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the AV 1611 KJV first edition, reprinted billions of times and loved by Christians for over 400 years.
The KJV Holy Bible is the greatest book of all time !
The KJV Holy Bible is the most published and most read book
of all time !
Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from now. Thank you.
So you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe in God, believe Jesus is the Son of God, and live their lives as best as they know how, are not saved?
Yes. Because of their rejection of whom God is.
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That's not how I took it at all. I know your heart is in the right place. I also know you and I agree about Jesus being God. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't said something I shouldn't have.