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The Bible does not teach that the dead are unconscious. The various groups or sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Christadelphians, and others who promote the false teaching of soul sleep like to park themselves in the Old Testament and use those verses to promote that heresy.
And, Mike, you would do well to follow that example...As I've said before, if one is to understand the New Testament and what Yeshua and the Apostles said then one must take the Lamp of the Old Testament and shine it onto the New Testament in order to ascertain the meaning of the New Testament...
We all have a spirit or breath that returns to 'god' upon death. That spirit, however, has no consciousness (soul) unless and until it is united with a body.
To the contrary. As Luke 16:19-31, Rev 6:9-11, Rev 7:9-17 show, those who have died are conscious whether in heaven or in Hades.
1 Thess 4:13 'But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17] Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.'
1 Thess. 4:13-17, states that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. The passage then says that those who are alive on the earth will not precede those who have fallen asleep which is a reference to the body. The Lord will come down from heaven with those believers who have died and have been in heaven, and they - the dead in Christ, will rise or be resurrected first. And then those who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air and all will then go into heaven for the duration of the Tribulation.
This is the resurrection of church-age believers at the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation.
So who is Jesus bringing with him from heaven? They are immaterial souls that will be united with their bodies at this resurrection event. They had been with the Lord in heaven.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
So, you are stating that they are by-passing the Resurrection?...It does not state that God will send with Jesus, but, that God will bring with Jesus...
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.
Where, herein, does it even imply that Yeshua is going to return with the Souls of those asleep?...Where at all in the bible does it state anything akin to the soul and the body joining up together?...
It state that Yehovaw will bring with Yeshua all those that have fallen asleep through (Faith) in Yeshua...If it was meant as you state, then why not say that Yehovaw will send with Yeshua all those souls to rejoin there bodies?...It states that He will bring not send, but bring with Yeshua all those that have fallen asleep...Why?..Because, those still alive in Yeshau on that Day will not proceed into Heaven BEFORE those that had fallen asleep through (Faith) Yeshua...Implying that those asleep have not yet entered into Heaven, for if they had, then the author of this letter would have no need to state that those still alive would not go there first before the dead in Yeshua, because they are already there...
And, Mike, you would do well to follow that example...As I've said before, if one is to understand the New Testament and what Yeshua and the Apostles said then one must take the Lamp of the Old Testament and shine it onto the New Testament in order to ascertain the meaning of the New Testament...
Try giving that advice to the theologians who are quite knowledgeable concerning both the Old and New Testament and who will tell you that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. Try telling that to Dr. Robert Dean who is a sought after Bible teacher and whose study on the book of Revelation you dismissed out of hand as garbage without even making any effort to find out what the study had to say.
Now here is some advice for you. Passages on some particular doctrine which are less clear must be understood in the light of passages which are clear. Biblical revelation is progressive. What was only hinted at in the Old Testament, or not even revealed, is brought to light in the New Testament. The New Testament is clear that the believer goes to heaven when he dies.
Soul sleep is not Biblical.
Speaking of the Old Testament, the Holy of holies in the tabernacle, and later in the temple (Old Testament), was separated from the holy place by a veil. The Holy of holies in the tabernacle represented the real Holy of holies in heaven. When the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom by God Himself when Jesus died, this signified that heaven was now open for believers in Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-12-2012 at 08:07 AM..
For at least the third time on this thread, before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ no one went to heaven, but went to Sheol. Sheol is not the grave. It is the same place that in the New Testament is called Hades. Believers went to the what in Luke 16 is called Abraham's Bosom, while unbelievers went and still go to the 'Torments' side. Jesus also called it Paradise when He told the thief that he would be with Him that very day.
I believe that I also have already said that the word sleep simply refers to the body in death. It is never used for the soul.
Also, your failure to capitalize the word God and putting it in single quotations makes me wonder if you even believe in Him. If that's the case, this is all lost on you anyway.
Abraham's Bosom is a Hebraic idiom meaning a place of honor...As far the place where the Rich Man was...The Greek word topos is used which signifies not a place but a posotion...
Mike, please point out ot me wherein this Parable does it state one way or the other the beliefs of either of them?...
Yes, God is the God of the living. However Moses and Elijah didn't appear "in person" on the Mt. You two would know this too if you wouldn't have taken the vs out of context.
So how do we know this?
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
So they didn't actually see those 2 men, but they had a vision of them standing there.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
So, you are stating that they are by-passing the Resurrection?...It does not state that God will send with Jesus, but, that God will bring with Jesus...
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.
Where, herein, does it even imply that Yeshua is going to return with the Souls of those asleep?...Where at all in the bible does it state anything akin to the soul and the body joining up together?...
It state that Yehovaw will bring with Yeshua all those that have fallen asleep through (Faith) in Yeshua...If it was meant as you state, then why not say that Yehovaw will send with Yeshua all those souls to rejoin there bodies?...It states that He will bring not send, but bring with Yeshua all those that have fallen asleep...Why?..Because, those still alive in Yeshau on that Day will not proceed into Heaven BEFORE those that had fallen asleep through (Faith) Yeshua...Implying that those asleep have not yet entered into Heaven, for if they had, then the author of this letter would have no need to state that those still alive would not go there first before the dead in Yeshua, because they are already there...
Come on, Mike...Use some logic and reason...
Are you purposely twisting what I say? Or are you really that uncomprehending? The passage states clearly that those who are dead in Christ - those are the ones who return with Christ from heaven - will rise (be resurrected) first, and then 1 Thess 4:17 states that those who are alive will be caught up together with those who have returned with Jesus, and they will all be with the Lord forever. During the tribulation they will remain in heaven and return to the earth with Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
Those (speaking of the soul) who have fallen asleep are with Christ in heaven and return with Him from heaven when He comes to catch up the church age believers who are alive on the earth.
Abraham's Bosom is a Hebraic idiom meaning a place of honor...As far the place where the Rich Man was...The Greek word topos is used which signifies not a place but a posotion...
Mike, please point out ot me wherein this Parable does it state one way or the other the beliefs of either of them?...
That's already been covered in this thread. And you've been told what Luke 16:19-31 means. I will not go over it again.
To the contrary. As Luke 16:19-31, show, those who have died are conscious whether in heaven or in Hades.
Again, Mike, It is a Parable, it is not regarding the eternal destinies of believer and non-believer...It is regarding the role reversals of the Nations with Israel...Gentiles with Jews...There is nothing at all in that Parable that implies belief (Faith) one way or the other...So, why do you continue to use it in a feeble attempt to declare what it does not state?...
...
Ps. 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence....
If the soul goes to heaven upon death, why do they not praise the Lord?...
Last edited by Richard1965; 05-12-2012 at 08:52 AM..
Again, Mike, It is a Parable, it is not regarding the eternal destinies of believer and non-believer...It is regarding the role reversals of the Nations with Israel...Gentiles with Jews...There is nothing at all in that Parable that implies belief (Faith) one way or the other...So, why do you continue to use it in a feeble attempt to declare what it does not state?...
...
Ps. 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence....
If the soul goes to heaven upon death, why do they not praise the Lord?...
Again, Luke 16:19-31 has been covered and you have been told what it means. I am not going to go over it again.
As for Psalm 115:17...
Gill's Expostion of the entire Bible
The dead praise not the Lord,.... Not the dead in sin; such as the makers of idols, and those that trust in them, who are like unto them; men must be made spiritually alive, ere they can show forth the praises of God: nor the dead corporeally. The souls of departed saints can and do praise the Lord: these die not with their bodies, nor sleep in the grave; they go immediately to God and Christ, and are employed in the service of God continually; particularly in praising him, as do the angels with whom they join; they sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb, of providence and grace; especially the song of redeeming love, with which they always praise the Lord: but they cannot praise him with their bodily organs until the resurrection, which by death are rendered useless; they can praise him no more among men on earth, as they have before done; there is no work of this kind in the grave. http://bible.cc/psalms/115-17.htm
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
The souls of the faithful, after they are delivered from the burdens of the flesh, are still praising him; but the dead body cannot praise God: death puts an end to our glorifying him in this world of trial and conflict. http://bible.cc/psalms/115-17.htm
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-12-2012 at 09:13 AM..
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