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Was the believer always alive? No? Then it is not accurate to describe him as having eternal life.
Was the unbeliever always punished? No? Then it is not accurate to describe it as eternal punishment.
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Hebrews 9:28
Jesus is coming a second time ... why? To save.
To save who?
To save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Does it say He is coming to save those who were told the saving gospel of Jesus Christ but chose to reject Him?
NO, it does not say that.
Excellent scripture Saved.
There is not one single scripture anywhere that says an unbeliever will repent, be forgiven, or be saved in the afterlife. This is wishful thinking on the part of universalists.
I am done with this thread. I've said all I wanted to say.
I just started a new thread. I hope you will join me there.
Read the context of the passage. Who and what is Jesus speaking about? He is speaking about the judgement, when the Son of Man comes in His glory.
He says in verse 40, "to the extent you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me."
Jesus is talking about how His disciples, His brothers, and how He expects them to be treated.
Verse 31-33 tells us that Jesus will sit on His throne. He will separate the nations from one another, sheep on the right, goats on the left.
To the sheep (the saved) He will say, "inherit the kingdom prepared for you."
It is to the goats He says, "I was a stranger, and you did not invite me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me, sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me."
It is to the goats He says, "to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these (referring back to His brethren), you did not do it to Me.
I don't visit anyone in prison. I don't know anyone in prison. If I did, I would visit them, especially if they were a brother or sister in Christ.
I believe Jesus was talking about His brethren, and if a christian is in prison, we are to visit them.
Will my not visiting strangers in prison send me to eternal torment? Nope! I don't believe so. I don't believe Jesus was telling us here that we need to visit prisons and people we don't know. That may be your interpretation, but it is not mine.
Remember, Christians are not perfect people lego. Christians sin just like unbelievers do. The difference is that we have the precious blood of Jesus to cover our imperfections.
That's my position, for what it's worth. $0.02
None of this changes the fact,
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment will last as long as eternal life does. The same word is used for eternal punishment as it is for eternal life. Eternal is forever and ever.
Katie
I guess I just disagree because it is quite clear that those who are going into aionios punishment are those who do not visit the sick, help the poor, visit those in prison, etc. Essentially, those who are selfish - those who practice NON-LOVE (Remember, God is Love, and those who love KNOW God - it is relevant). You are right, no one is perfect. Everyone has not offered food to the homeless when they could have. But Jesus doesn't offer that as an excuse. He says, if you didn't do that, you didn't do that to me... And they (those who didn't give food or visit the sick) will go away into eternal punishment.
Nobody's perfect? Tell that to Jesus when He says you didn't visit the sick one time and you must go away into eternal punishment.
That is how the verse reads, if we are to read it under the literalistic view you have of hell.
As for it being the same word in Matt 25:46 - you are quite right - it is the same word: aionios. Pneuma gave a good explanation.
Here is my abbreviated explanation: aionios life is not talking about living forever. It is talking about knowing God. That is how scripture defines it in John 17:3. Aionios life is to know God - knowing God in these ages we live in right now. Many do not have that. Knowing God is doing what He commanded - doing LOVE - which ties right back to Matt 25. If you don't' LOVE as Jesus commanded, then you don't feed the hungry, visit the sick, and you don't KNOW God - you don't have aionios life.
Likewise aionios 'punishment' is actually aionios kolasin in the greek, which quite literally means an 'age-lasting pruning' - referring to correction.
It is always about correction.
The argument that the 'duration' of life must be equal to the 'duration' of punishment is moot - because all will also receive immortality - which is what living forever really is.
Christ does this when He makes all alive. Immortality is NOT aionios life. It is separate, which is why it is mentioned separately from aionios life.
The same exact Greek word for eternal life is used for eternal punishment. Do you think that eternal life is temporary? How about God? Is He eternal? Will He last forever and ever?
HI Katie, this has been gone over many times, but I will post to again soon, to go along with what others have shared. God transcends time, Katie. He is also the God of the ages.
Quote:
The majority of the world's best Greek scholars chose to use the word "eternal" when translating from the Greek to English. Only one chooses life age-during, and that is the YLT.
This is an incorrect statement, Katie. Many Biblical scholars understand and have shown that aionios means "of or relating to an age."
1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age.”
8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."
14. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.
15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.” The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Katie, it would be good to do a good study of some words that have been translated as "forever", "eternal", "everlasting", "incurable" and so and you will find that they do not literally mean this. Examples:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" 6:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez53).
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, diesfor our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit ispoured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
This what I believe that aionios life and aionios punishment are, Katie.
Aionos means "of or relating to an age" An age is an indefinite period of time. It has a beginning and it has an end. The scriptures speak of the aions (ages)
Here is a good description of what the Hebrew mind thought about time here and how this has been mistranslated in some translations:
1 John 5: 11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this -- the life -- is in His Son; (YLT)
Believers have aionios life. Aionios means, "of or pertaining to an age or ages"
Jesus has defined aionios life as knowing God, the only True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. (John 17:3)
Aionios life is what believers have now today and in the age to come. We are promised immortality when we are resurrected. This is when we will live forever.
We are speaking of 2 different things.
John 3 13Do not wonder, my brethren, if the world doth hate you; 14we -- we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death. 15Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining (YLT)
1 John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony: God has given usaionios-life, andthis life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Believers have the life of the ages, life during the ages, and this life consists of knowing God, the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. It is the highest life that the Creator has given to the creature. It is a quality of life that we have during the ages that God is working out His plan for the creation.
Life (Zoe) =the principle of life in the spirit and soul; expressing all of the highest and best which Christ is and which He gives to the saints (believers) (Key Word Study Bible)
We have a relationship with God today, in this age and in the age to come. We can know the Creator today. We are walking with God by faith, have been forgiven, have been set free from the slavery to sin, can be overcomers, will rule and reign with Him, have His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, have His power to live right today, are being transformed into His image, and we are to be lights in the world. We are the people of God. Believers have passed out of death and into life because we have aionios life, the life of knowing God, the life of the ages. We are no longer lost, no longer slaves to sin, and we can walk with God victoriously in this age and in the age to come. We have a relationship with the Father. This the aionios life. Those who are lost are not walking with God, live according to the flesh, are in darkness. They do not have aionios life.
Believers have life during the ages. Most people do not have this life and many will perish in this age and in the age to come. Many will experience the severe judgments of God which are the judgments of God during the ages. (aionios punishment)
The scriptures refer to past ages, the present age, and ages to come. They cannot be eternal if they have a beginning and an end.
There was "a secret concealed from the aions" (ages) (past) (Eph.3:9)
There was "the preparation of the aions"(ages) (past) (Heb.11:3)
There is "the present wicked aion" (age)(present) (Gal.1:4)
There is "the conclusion of the current aion" (age) (present) (Matt 28:20)
There will be "the comingaion" (age)(future) (Luke 18:30)
There will be "the oncoming aions" (ages)(future) (Eph.2:7)
We can lose the life of knowing God today, in this age. Colossians 1:21-23 says that we will be presented holy, blameless, beyond reproach
if
we continue in the faith firmly Colossians says that believers who have aionios life, that life of the ages and during the ages, have been promised immortality.
*Immortality is not the same as aionios life. *
1 Corinthians 15:
50 50And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (aphthartoi),
and we -- we shall be changed: 53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian),
and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian)
54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Here is your immortality, Katie.
We will receive immortality when our bodies are raised never to die again and we will be with God forever. Aionios life is the life we have today, life during the ages and eventually we will receive immortality.
In addition to this glorious promise, Jesus will subject all to Himself one day so that God may be all in all. All will know God then because He will be in all. This is the goal. The same all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. Jesus is undoing what happened when the first Adam sinned and the consequences of that sin on all mankind. One day death itself will be abolished, or made of no effect, and all will have immortality. (1 Cor. 15) All will also know God. Believers are the first fruits of the process.
.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-08-2012 at 03:48 PM..
Scholars do not agree on the translations of the word "aionios" in many translations. We also know that many words translated as "eternal" "forever" and so on, are not the literal meaning.
"The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words, aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration. - Lange's Commentary
There is not one single scripture anywhere that says an unbeliever will repent, be forgiven, or be saved in the afterlife. This is wishful thinking on the part of universalists.
I am done with this thread. I've said all I wanted to say.
I just started a new thread. I hope you will join me there.
Thanks for all of your posts.
Katie
The sign of an open-minded discussion??
Anyway, you might want to read Romans 5. It shows us very plainly that all mankind will be saved.
Blessings,
brian
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