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Cimaroon if they were already sinful,what was the point of God saying to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree because they were going to eat it anyway ?.
Sin was conceived when Eve gazed upon it. The moment she gazed she ate and then she showed Adam what she was gazing on and he ate too. Throughout scripture it admonishes us to be careful what we look to, because, what we look upon we give birth to. So they were not created with sin, they conceived it.
Matt 28*but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
This exactly what Adam and Eve did, they looked upon, desired and committed .
I think pneuma as done a great job of refuting the old God created evil spin. To me it is as much an atrocious doctrine as eternal torment.
The only possible way God could create evil is if He is man.
Do you not find it unusual that God is not addressed as being evil, none of His names state He is evil, Jesus Christ went about doing Good, not evil.
You need to interpret the Isaiah scripture like all scripture in the light of Jesus Christ, and not through the mind of the mind of a Fundamentalsts (yes I know you are a universalist).
Interesting thread..., The Hebrew word "bara" (ברא) in Isa 48:7 is translated into the Greek using the word "gÃnomai" (γινεται) NOT "ktizo", in the Septuagint:
Isa 48:7 νυν γινεται και ου παλαι και ου προτεραις ημεραις ηκουσας αυτα μη ειπης οτι ναι γινωσκω αυτα
On what basis were the Septuagint translators wrong?
What basis indeed.So do we have a translation problem or is ginomai in the Septuagint speaking of the word made, as the Septuagint has more words in the verse then other translations.
Thus saith the Lord that made the heaven, this God that created the earth, and made it; he marked it out, he made it not in vain, but formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none beside
Which word is bara in the Septuagint brother is it created or made?
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You also posted on another thread that was perhaps even more confusing, here:
I fully agree this was when God made the heavens and the earth. I have no problem with that understanding. However we are told in the very next verse that the earth BECAME without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. God did not create the earth without form He created it to be inhabited Is.45:18, so something happened to it that made it that way.
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Here is the text of Isa 45:18:
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
The text uses the Hebrew word yâtsar (יצר) for "formed", that is: God "formed" the earth to be inhabited. However, the earth was "created" (bara) without form and void, as Genesis 1:2 tells us.
Gen 1:1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
This was not God's ultimate purpose for the earth though. It was not "created" in vain, as Isa 45:18 tells us.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
It's seems clear from these two scriptures that God "created" the earth without form and void (but not in vain), as well as "forming" the earth it to be inhabited. Both acts of "creating" and "forming" the earth being attributed to God.
Well it might not have been confusing brother if you had of looked at the right word. I was not speaking of formed to be inhabited, I was speaking of created it not in vain. Which I went on to explain here
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Without form and not in vain are the same Hebrew word Tohuw.
So if God did not create the earth in tohuw then became is the proper translation of the word was.
So if we read them together we get.
And the earth BECAME without form and void. Otherwise Isaiah would have to read He created it in vain.
Which we know cannot be a proper translation because it goes on to say He formed it to be inhabited.
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It's seems clear from these two scriptures that God "created" the earth without form and void (but not in vain), as well as "forming" the earth it to be inhabited. Both acts of "creating" and "forming" the earth being attributed to God.
That cannot be correct brother because without form is tohuw and not in vain is tohuw.
So it cannot read the way you want it to.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not without form, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
And the earth was without tohuw, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in tohuw, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
So no matter how you look at it storm (even in the Septuagint ) God did not create or make the earth Tohuw it BECAME tohuw
Cimaroon if they were already sinful,what was the point of God saying to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree because they were going to eat it anyway ?.
Sin was conceived when Eve gazed upon it. The moment she gazed she ate and then she showed Adam what she was gazing on and he ate too. Throughout scripture it admonishes us to be careful what we look to, because, what we look upon we give birth to. So they were not created with sin, they conceived it.
Matt 28*but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
This exactly what Adam and Eve did, they looked upon, desired and committed .
I think pneuma as done a great job of refuting the old God created evil spin. To me it is as much an atrocious doctrine as eternal torment.
The only possible way God could create evil is if He is man.
Do you not find it unusual that God is not addressed as being evil, none of His names state He is evil, Jesus Christ went about doing Good, not evil.
You need to interpret the Isaiah scripture like all scripture in the light of Jesus Christ, and not through the mind of the mind of a Fundamentalsts (yes I know you are a universalist).
Nothing outside the body can defile you. You are defiled by what is in your heart. Who fashioned their heart?
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Did I say anything about defile?
You asked how they sinned if God did not create sin in them.
I said by being decieved.
But speaking of defile
6Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Do you yet not see it brother, we are the temple of God, Gods temple is HOLY.
How can that which is Holy be created with sin in it?
Do you remember this:
God created the earth…the earth was without form. Without form H8414 tohuw:
1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness a) formlessness (of primeval earth) 1) nothingness, empty space b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig) c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places) d) place of chaos e) vanity
The earth had vanity within it….this is how God created it.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God formed (fashioned) man of the dust (dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish, debris mortar, ore earth) of the ground (ground, land, earth substance), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion).
God fashioned man of the rubbish of the earth substance (vanity, formlessness, confusion, a place of chaos, wasteland etc.) and breathed into his nostrils his spirit and man became a living creature.
Now look at this verse
Romans 8:20
The creature was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.
The living soul was subjected to vanity. Who subjected the creature to vanity?
Not willingly. This means that it was not by their own choice. Then whose choice was it?
But by reason of him. Who is him?
That hath subjected the same in hope. Who subjected us in hope?
It was God.
So the creature was subjected to vanity, not willingly but by reason of God who hath subjected the same creature in hope.
What basis indeed.So do we have a translation problem or is ginomai in the Septuagint speaking of the word made, as the Septuagint has more words in the verse then other translations.
Thus saith the Lord that made the heaven, this God that created the earth, and made it; he marked it out, he made it not in vain, but formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none beside
Which word is bara in the Septuagint brother is it created or made?
In Isa 48:7 it's "bara" in Hebrew and "ginomai" in the Septuagint. The Greek word here corresponds to the Hebrew word meaning to "create".
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I fully agree this was when God made the heavens and the earth. I have no problem with that understanding. However we are told in the very next verse that the earth BECAME without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. God did not create the earth without form He created it to be inhabited Is.45:18, so something happened to it that made it that way.
Well it might not have been confusing brother if you had of looked at the right word. I was not speaking of formed to be inhabited, I was speaking of created it not in vain. Which I went on to explain here
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Your explanation did not agree with the text though.
Quote:
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Without form and not in vain are the same Hebrew word Tohuw.
Yes, ok.....
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So if God did not create the earth in tohuw then became is the proper translation of the word was.
So if we read them together we get.
And the earth BECAME without form and void. Otherwise Isaiah would have to read He created it in vain.
No, not really. If my Lexicon is correct, the Hebrew word "hāyāh" simply means to exist in that state of being.
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Which we know cannot be a proper translation because it goes on to say He formed it to be inhabited.
It is properly translated though. God did not create the earth to remain in a formless state of voidness, but rather to be formed for habitation by man. The very thing Isa tells us in 45:18.
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That cannot be correct brother because without form is tohuw and not in vain is tohuw.
So it cannot read the way you want it to.
It's really not so much that I want it to read a particular way, but rather that the text simply reads that way. It is what it is.
Quote:
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not without form, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
And the earth was without tohuw, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in tohuw, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
So no matter how you look at it storm (even in the Septuagint ) God did not create or make the earth Tohuw it BECAME tohuw
Again, I don't think you're really seeing what the text is saying. God "created" it without form and void, but not in vain (or in void if you prefer). It was created formless and void out of nothing, not from or in something. I think this is what you might be missing here.
Cimaroon if they were already sinful,what was the point of God saying to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree because they were going to eat it anyway ?.
Did you not read my post..I explained the reason.
Do not eat of the tree. This is a command from God...A rule...A law. It's purpose was to show them that they were fashioned in sin and a being that was not God.
Remember why God gives us his commands/his laws...to show us our sin.
He wants to prove to us what is in our hearts....whether we would obey him or not...think it through!
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