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If any man defile the temple of God...look up in the concordance the definition of man here...it also says: 1) whoever, whatever
Whatever defile the temple of God, him (1. this) shall God destroy.
So God is going to destroy Himself, for you believe God defiled His own temple, man.
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God did blow his Spirit in man...so we know he dwells within us. But what is destroying his temple?
According to you it is God that defiled His own temple with creating sin within it.
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It is the sin in our heart...our stubborn stony heart. This is what is defiling the temple and this is what God will destroy.
Yet according to you it is God that placed this stony heart with us that is defiling His temple, so in fact it is God who is defiling His own temple according to your understanding.
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Christ said: Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
What is causing the offense in us? It is our heart. Our heart is the member of our body causing the offense because this is where the sin lies. The very heart of man.
So here is what Christ said pluck it out and cast it from thee so that thy whole body will not be cast in hell.
And God does that very same thing...He plucks out our heart and cast it away.
I agree God plucks out our stony heart and casts it away, I just disagree that God placed the heart of stone within His Holy temple.
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Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
I agree with the scripture, but you will notice what God is doing here. He is taking away the stony heart, not putting a stony heart within us just so He can later on take it away.
Let me ask you this. Who is it that God will do this to? Is it not the sons of God? Adam was a son of God. Adam had a good heart but it became corrupted.
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This is why Paul said:
1 Corinthians 3:15 Right before he spoke about the temple of God.
If any man's( man could also be 1 whoever, whatever) work shall be burned he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This goes in line perfectly with what was said before:
the man will be saved his works will be destroyed
the man will be saved his heart will be pluck out and destroyed.
And I have no problem with that, what I have a problem with is God placing the works of sin in His Holy temple.
You believe in the restitution of all things (if I read you correctly) what does it mean to you?
Restitution means to be restore to it former estate.
How do you truly know the heart of God if you do not understand your own heart?
In other words...How will God teach you about himself..He is love ..he is merciful, patient, kind etc.
how will you truly understand these things if you do not understand the opposite of these things....See now why he fashions us in iniquity.
What would love mean to us if we did not know hate?
What would forgiveness mean to a person if they were created perfect and never in need of forgiveness? How will they understand why they would need to be forgiven?
In order to know one character you must know the opposite.
God himself does not have hate within him, but to teach his children love they must understand hate.
He is showing us both:
Look at this verse Deuteronomy 30:15
See I have set the table before thee this day, life and good and death and evil.
He set everything in front of us. he showed us good and he showed us evil, he showed life and he showed us death. He wants us to know....He is doing all this out of love. he is telling us everything, and showing us everything.
Jesus life tells us that what you believe just ain't so.
Did He have to wallow in sin in order to forgive?
Did He have to hate in order to love?
Did sin have to enter into Him so He could understand all these things?
By an awakened mind that beholds Jesus Christ . I see the Lord before me and in doing so he makes known to me the path of life. No evil necessary to behold for a man to be changed into his likeness.
You do understand we become what we behold ? . What do you think happens when you behold hate, and all the other evil you believe God needs us to see to change ?. Christ is the answer, not knowing evil.
By an awakened mind that beholds Jesus Christ . I see the Lord before me and in doing so he makes known to me the path of life. No evil necessary to behold for a man to be changed into his likeness.
Do you realize that the transformation of the heart has not yet occurred.
Peter said that many of Paul's writtings are hard to understand:
2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Paul spoke alot about the hope he had; the things he looked forward to that had not yet occurred.
Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
this was why Paul said set your thoughts on the things of heaven but he also told us that he had has not already achieved these things nor has he reached perfection.
Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Sin does not leave us until after we die
we do not get the new heart and spirit until after we die
We do not have true faith until after we die
we are not truly kind until after we die
Everything we experience in the flesh that is good is just a foretaste of future glory.
None of us has the full measure of his Spiritual gift until after he cuts away our sinful nature. But he does assure us that each of us has a spiritual gift, we all don't share the same gifts but whichever gift the Spirit give us we should use to care for each other...read 1 Corinthians 12
we are still slaves to sin but to those who have the gift of faith, we know the hope that awaits us: we are free in Christ (this freedom is in our minds) true freedom, when we are phyically released from sin does not occurr until we die...He that is dead is freed from sin Romans 6:7
To those who have the foretaste also known as the first fruits of faith you should use your faith to share the hope.
To those who have the firstfruits of teaching...teach
he that has the firstfruits of mercy...show mercy with cheerfulness. Romans 12:6-15
do not use the faith which has been given you to curse, use it to bless those which persecute you and pray for them and forgive them for you know they know not what they do...they will not know until God gives them the knowledge and the faith he has given you.
So God is going to destroy Himself, for you believe God defiled His own temple, man.
No pneuma, Although God subjected us in vanity he himself does not have sin within him, so he is not destroying himself..the sin is in our heart he is destroying the heart of man.
Do you realize that the transformation of the heart has not yet occurred.
Peter said that many of Paul's writtings are hard to understand:
2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Paul spoke alot about the hope he had; the things he looked forward to that had not yet occurred.
Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
this was why Paul said set your thoughts on the things of heaven but he also told us that he had has not already achieved these things nor has he reached perfection.
Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Sin does not leave us until after we die
we do not get the new heart and spirit until after we die
We do not have true faith until after we die
we are not truly kind until after we die
Everything we experience in the flesh that is good is just a foretaste of future glory.
None of us has the full measure of his Spiritual gift until after he cuts away our sinful nature. But he does assure us that each of us has a spiritual gift, we all don't share the same gifts but whichever gift the Spirit give us we should use to care for each other...read 1 Corinthians 12
we are still slaves to sin but to those who have the gift of faith, we know the hope that awaits us: we are free in Christ (this freedom is in our minds) true freedom, when we are phyically released from sin does not occurr until we die...He that is dead is freed from sin Romans 6:7
To those who have the foretaste also known as the first fruits of faith you should use your faith to share the hope.
To those who have the firstfruits of teaching...teach
he that has the firstfruits of mercy...show mercy with cheerfulness. Romans 12:6-15
do not use the faith which has been given you to curse, use it to bless those which persecute you and pray for them and forgive them for you know they know not what they do...they will not know until God gives them the knowledge and the faith he has given you.
It"s occurring through Beholding him
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3:18
That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. Philemon 1:6
finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things Why ?
You missed my point storm, in the Septuagint it uses bothcreate and made, is create bara in the Septuagint ? Or is it ginomai?
The Hebrew is "bara" and in the Septuagint it is "ginomai". In the other text you've cited (Isa 45:18) the Greek word "ginomai" does not appear in the text. At least not in the Septuagint text I have. It would be much simpler if you simply post the Hebrew and Greek texts that you're comparing.
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Yes it does brother, as a matter of fact it is the only one that does.
1961 hayah { haw-yaw}
a primitive root [compare 1933]; TWOT - 491; v
AV - was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee; 75
GK - 181 { hy<h]a,
}* & 2118 { hy:h;
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) -----
1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
1a1b) to come about, come to pass
1a2) to come into being, become
1a2a) to arise, appear, come
1a2b) to become
1a2b1) to become
1a2b2) to become like
1a2b3) to be instituted, be established
1a3) to be
1a3a) to exist, be in existence
1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
1a3d) to accompany, be with
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995
All things considered BECAME looks to be the word it should have been translated into.
It only "looks" that way if you remove it from it's context and the very concept of "creation". Which you're doing. The earth was created formless and void out of nothing. Not "becoming" so from something else.
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That is NOT what it says though storm, that is your spin on what you want it to say.
It's really not a "spin" job. That is simply how the text reads and what the context demands.
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Look at it again.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not without form, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
And the earth was without tohuw, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in tohuw, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else
You miss quoted the text, again. The text says: "not in vain". However, you keep insisting on "became without form". And that is not what the text says, or means. You're torturing the text to get it to confess what it will not say. And it simply does not say what you want it to.
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Sorry but you are the one not seeing it correctly brother.
And that you place not in vain or void if you prefer, shows me you are not seeing it clearly.
We are not talking about void, bohuw in the Hebrew we are talking about tohuw.
But if we were talking about bohuw/void mean empty
So if you read both sets of scripture again
I know, I'm getting lazy. To be truthful I meant to type "formless" to correspond to the Hebrew word under consideration but had already formed the next thought "void" in my mind while reciting the Genesis passage in my head. My fingers were following the thoughts In my head. Forgive me.
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And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Yes, that is correct. "...was without form..."
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Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not without form, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.
That is not correct. It is rather "not in vain", as the text tells us.
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And the earth was without form and empty according to your understand, but Isaiah says God did not create it without form and empty, He created it to be inhabited.
So if God did not create it without form but to be inhabited, something must have happened to make it without form and empty.
Those scriptures simply cannot be reconciled unless WAS is translated BECAME
They are reconciled by Isa though. Right there in the text. You simply are not reading it as it is. Why is that? It's the same thing with the Isa 45:7 thread a few months ago. Here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ited-will.html
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So maybe you can tell me how it is that God according to you made His Holy temple with sin indwelling? And if that which is Holy is full of sin then what can we say of a Holy God?
According to me? I'm somewhat late getting to this thread. Can you post where I've said "...made His Holy temple with sin indwelling? I'm not even sure what that means...Can you give me a hint?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 06-27-2012 at 10:10 PM..
Reason: Added link
Let me ask you this. Who is it that God will do this to? Is it not the sons of God? Adam was a son of God. Adam had a good heart but it became corrupted.
God will do this for all of us. he will remove all our hearts and give us new hearts. Adam did not have a good heart. Please think this through...can something that is good produce bad works.
look at Christ he was good created from above...did he sin ...ever? No
look at Adam created from below(the earth)... did he sin...yes
what does this tell you.
you either believe the words of Christ or you don't
you will know them by their fruit
A good tree cannot produce bad fruit .....no matter what it is impossible for something created good to to produce bad works.
God is good some of his works are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance.
God does not possess within him adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings etc. Neither did Christ...man on the other hand is a different story.
Adam would never have sinned as Christ did not sin if he was created perfect. He would never have been able to fall from his perfect...if we can become imperfect after God makes us perfect then salvation is not necessarily eternal and we know that's not true.
When he makes everything new there will be no more death...ever, no more sorrow...ever, no more pain...ever, the former things are passed away never to return. This perfection is garaunteed to last.
Jesus life tells us that what you believe just ain't so.
Did He have to wallow in sin in order to forgive?
Did He have to hate in order to love?
Did sin have to enter into Him so He could understand all these things?
Jesus was not created from below...he said it "I am from above...He himself is God. He knows all things...Christ did not need teaching....he was the teacher.
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