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I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one pneuma.
You say that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. However, JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
It is the devil's NATURE to lie. The nature of something is its inborn or hereditary characteristics which are an influence and/or determinant of their personality. It is the basic, innate, inherent features - the intrinsic (God given), essential qualities or character of something. Therefore, Satan must have had these innate qualities from, as Jesus said, THE BEGINNING.
To repeat and enlarge legoman's point. Consider this. You ask:How COULD an all-wise and holy God create an evil Devil?I ask:If an all-wise and omnipotent God created a being with the inherent ability and potential to rebel against Him and become evil; and He knew beforehand that this being would rebel and become evil, is God then any LESS responsible for creating the devil?
Remember what God said to Pharaoh, a notoriously rebellious man: "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED THEE UP, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9: 17)
God said: "I have created the waster to destroy" (Isaiah 54:16)
Nature itself confirms that God creates opposing forces. The fundamental law of creation is that an OPPOSING FORCE is necessary for balance and growth. No object could hold together without an opposing force to keep it from flying apart. The earth tries to fly away from the sun, but gravity holds it in orbit. Electrons try to fly away from the nucleus of an atom, but opposing forces hold it together. We have a positive and negative charge; a north and south pole, etc. God created day and night. God created black (the absence of color) and white (full saturation). These natural phenomenon are but a type of what is spiritual.
This is how God rolls. God creates and uses opposing forces in everything He does. God creates and uses opposing forces in the physical realm to bring perfect harmony to His universe. God creates and uses opposing forces in the spiritual realm to bring perfect harmony to His family.
I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one pneuma.
You say that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. However, JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
It is the devil's NATURE to lie. The nature of something is its inborn or hereditary characteristics which are an influence and/or determinant of their personality. It is the basic, innate, inherent features - the intrinsic (God given), essential qualities or character of something. Therefore, Satan must have had these innate qualities from, as Jesus said, THE BEGINNING.
To repeat and enlarge legoman's point. Consider this. You ask:How COULD an all-wise and holy God create an evil Devil?I ask:If an all-wise and omnipotent God created a being with the inherent ability and potential to rebel against Him and become evil; and He knew beforehand that this being would rebel and become evil, is God then any LESS responsible for creating the devil?
Remember what God said to Pharaoh, a notoriously rebellious man: "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED THEE UP, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9: 17)
God said: "I have created the waster to destroy" (Isaiah 54:16)
Nature itself confirms that God creates opposing forces. The fundamental law of creation is that an OPPOSING FORCE is necessary for balance and growth. No object could hold together without an opposing force to keep it from flying apart. The earth tries to fly away from the sun, but gravity holds it in orbit. Electrons try to fly away from the nucleus of an atom, but opposing forces hold it together. We have a positive and negative charge; a north and south pole, etc. God created day and night. God created black (the absence of color) and white (full saturation). These natural phenomenon are but a type of what is spiritual.
This is how God rolls. God creates and uses opposing forces in everything He does. God creates and uses opposing forces in the physical realm to bring perfect harmony to His universe. God creates and uses opposing forces in the spiritual realm to bring perfect harmony to His family.
I pretty much agree with you here Iluin.
BTW pneuma doesn't believe God is omnipotent either.
Some people get caught up in what is known as the Omniscience Paradox. The Omniscience Paradox can be defined by these two questions:
"Can an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, timeless, boundless, limitless, and uncontained Entity create that which it doesn't already know?"
"If information is the substance and causation to all that exists, would an omniscient Entity not literally be everything and anything in, or of existence?"
So how is it that a good God can create these things?
This is how I see it pneuma.
God created all things - this universe, the people, beasts, angels, and other spiritual beings that are in it, along with all physical matter.
However I don't think the above list are "things" per say ie. they are not physical things. They are concepts or truths. Let me try to explain how I see this with a more benign example.
Did God create "2+2=4"? In effect, did God invent truth? 2+2=4 is a true statement, it must always be true and can be proven to be so. Did God "create" this truth, or was it simply self-existent? I believe the truth is self-existent, and God is giving us knowledge of this truth. I'm talking about the sum of all knowledge, which includes the knowledge of good and evil.
God wills for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Part of this knowledge includes all the things you mentioned above - the knowledge of good and evil. So did God create "sin"? Did God invent the concept of sin, did God create disobedience, or is it simply a truth that disobedience is sin? I believe that it is a simple truth, and God is showing us it, so we know why not to do it.
Ultimately this is about us learning to love, so we can be like God.
Learning to love means learning to endure, to forgive, to be compassionate, to protect.
We could not learn to love if there was nothing to endure, forgive or protect from.
Thus we could not learn to be like God nor would we learn who God is.
Quote:
What you would have me believe is that God created mass murders and then punishes them for doing what He created them to do.
Does no one else see a problem with that scenario?
God did create murderers because we ALL are murderers. Every single one of us is a murderer at heart. We have all hated someone at one point or another. This is a simple truth. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
But Jesus is the way, and this is what will turn us and redeem us. When we finally learn Jesus' commands: Love God, love one another, love your enemies, then we are no longer murderers, and then we will understand why.
Some people get caught up in what is known as the Omniscience Paradox. The Omniscience Paradox can be defined by these two questions:
"Can an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, timeless, boundless, limitless, and uncontained Entity create that which it doesn't already know?"
"If information is the substance and causation to all that exists, would an omniscient Entity not literally be everything and anything in, or of existence?"
Indeed they are tricky, if not impossible, questions to answer, when we start dealing with things outside of time and question the infinite or the omni* abilities.
All I can do is analyze it from my perspective.
God created humanity, and humanity sinned.
Nothing exists except for what God created.
Therefore.........
But I think an important thing I have realized in the past couple years is that the truth is self-existent. 2+2=4 will always be true, and cannot be broken, even by God. And likewise you cannot fully understand love without understanding forgiveness. God cannot turn the truth into a lie.
I don't believe God created murderers. I belive God created people who turn away from the path of love (God is love) and the capacity for murder (and all other forms of non-love, in the full spectrum) was created out of that turning away. But God did not create the murderer. The murderer created himself, in a sense.
God is responsible and has taken responsibility for subjecting us to this "futility". To this capacity for turning FROM Him... But that capacity to turn from Him is why we are here. To LEARN the contrast of love versus non-love. But God did not create anyone to be a murderer. God did not CREATE non-love. Non-love comes into existence and is created where love (god) is NOT. In the empty void.... is where the things that come forth from non-love are created: greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. God is love and God CANNOT create those things. But those things come into existence when we turn away from God.
Perhaps the "I create the light and form the darkness... I make peace and create evil" is just God taking responsiblity for subjecting us to this futility, like I said before. But God doesn't actually bring evil (non-love) into existence. He "creates" it because without Him, it would not be created in the first place. Without LOVE to turn AWAY from, non-love would not exist. Nothing would exist. So in a sense, God DOES create evil, but not the way people think.
This just makes sense to me but I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else. I agree with pneuma but I'm not entirely sure if pneuma is saying the same thing or not. I don't know.
When we walk the narrow (path of love, life) we walk towards God. What is created on that path is of God.
When we walk the wide (path of non-love, death) we walk away from God. What is created on that path is not of God. Not created by God. Not guided into by God.
God cannot tempt or force or guide anyone towards anything that is on the path of non-love.
It is an impossibility in my eyes.
just my thoughts.
subject to change if I start to see something that I didn't see before.
Let me try to explain my viewpoint a bit further.
In my mind, these two statements:
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I belive God created people who turn away from the path of love (God is love) and the capacity for murder (and all other forms of non-love, in the full spectrum) was created out of that turning away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
God did create murderers because we ALL are murderers.
are equivalent.
If God created people who turn away from the path of love and have the capacity for murder (non-love), and God knew this would happen, then He has effectively created murderers, indirectly or directly, depending on how you want to describe it.
However creating murderers was not the point or purpose.
Quote:
God is responsible and has taken responsibility for subjecting us to this "futility". To this capacity for turning FROM Him... But that capacity to turn from Him is why we are here. To LEARN the contrast of love versus non-love. But God did not create anyone to be a murderer. God did not CREATE non-love. Non-love comes into existence and is created where love (god) is NOT. In the empty void.... is where the things that come forth from non-love are created: greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. God is love and God CANNOT create those things. But those things come into existence when we turn away from God.
Perhaps the "I create the light and form the darkness... I make peace and create evil" is just God taking responsiblity for subjecting us to this futility, like I said before. But God doesn't actually bring evil (non-love) into existence. He "creates" it because without Him, it would not be created in the first place. Without LOVE to turn AWAY from, non-love would not exist. Nothing would exist. So in a sense, God DOES create evil, but not the way people think.
This just makes sense to me but I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else. I agree with pneuma but I'm not entirely sure if pneuma is saying the same thing or not. I don't know.
When we walk the narrow (path of love, life) we walk towards God. What is created on that path is of God.
When we walk the wide (path of non-love, death) we walk away from God. What is created on that path is not of God. Not created by God. Not guided into by God.
God cannot tempt or force or guide anyone towards anything that is on the path of non-love.
It is an impossibility in my eyes.
just my thoughts.
subject to change if I start to see something that I didn't see before.
peace..
I agree with alot of what you say here too sparrow. I tried to explain a bit more with us coming to understand the sum of all truth. God didn't create sin, but understanding sin is required to understand the truth. In a sense, non-love exists as part of this knowledge. But that is not the point.
And I definitely agree with you that the point is to come to understand LOVE, and to do that we MUST experience non-love.
Peace to you to sparrow...
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