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God created all things - this universe, the people, beasts, angels, and other spiritual beings that are in it, along with all physical matter.
However I don't think the above list are "things" per say ie. they are not physical things. They are concepts or truths. Let me try to explain how I see this with a more benign example.
Did God create "2+2=4"? In effect, did God invent truth? 2+2=4 is a true statement, it must always be true and can be proven to be so. Did God "create" this truth, or was it simply self-existent? I believe the truth is self-existent, and God is giving us knowledge of this truth. I'm talking about the sum of all knowledge, which includes the knowledge of good and evil.
God wills for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Part of this knowledge includes all the things you mentioned above - the knowledge of good and evil. So did God create "sin"? Did God invent the concept of sin, did God create disobedience, or is it simply a truth that disobedience is sin? I believe that it is a simple truth, and God is showing us it, so we know why not to do it.
Ultimately this is about us learning to love, so we can be like God.
Learning to love means learning to endure, to forgive, to be compassionate, to protect.
We could not learn to love if there was nothing to endure, forgive or protect from.
Thus we could not learn to be like God nor would we learn who God is.
God did create murderers because we ALL are murderers. Every single one of us is a murderer at heart. We have all hated someone at one point or another. This is a simple truth. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
But Jesus is the way, and this is what will turn us and redeem us. When we finally learn Jesus' commands: Love God, love one another, love your enemies, then we are no longer murderers, and then we will understand why.
And yet Jesus never sinned, nor had sin sowed within, yet had the full knowledge of God.
Are needed within man for man to come to the full knowledge of God then the reverse must also be correct which would be Jesus did not have the full knowledge of God as He never had these things within Him.
You guys go on and on about God creating all thing as per Col.1:15-17 and all things mean all things to you, which include sin and evil.
Yet when this scripture
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For ALL THINGS originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen! (Romans 11:36)
states That all things come from God through Christ and will return to God all of a sudden "all things" does not mean all things.
There is simply NO sin in God or Christ for sin to come from Him.
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God did create murderers because we ALL are murderers. Every single one of us is a murderer at heart. We have all hated someone at one point or another. This is a simple truth. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
God did not create murders brother, murder come from the apple that fell from the tree not from God.
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But Jesus is the way, and this is what will turn us and redeem us. When we finally learn Jesus' commands: Love God, love one another, love your enemies, then we are no longer murderers, and then we will understand why.
Yes Jesus is the way, but you only really look at Him as the end of God's way for you place sin and all the things I mentioned above as a PART of the ways of God and Jesus NEVER had sin within Him.
You state Jesus is the way, but then you take your eyes off of Him and look at man and conclude that which man does are the ways of God.
45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,
46 but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.
47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;
48 as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly;
49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly.
The way I read it is being earthy, of the flesh. Adam was of the flesh and did not have the fullness of God dwelling in him but Jesus came in the flesh but He was from heaven, with the fulness of God in Him. God bless and peace.
I don't believe God created murderers. I belive God created people who turn away from the path of love (God is love) and the capacity for murder (and all other forms of non-love, in the full spectrum) was created out of that turning away. But God did not create the murderer. The murderer created himself, in a sense.
God is responsible and has taken responsibility for subjecting us to this "futility". To this capacity for turning FROM Him... But that capacity to turn from Him is why we are here. To LEARN the contrast of love versus non-love. But God did not create anyone to be a murderer. God did not CREATE non-love. Non-love comes into existence and is created where love (god) is NOT. In the empty void.... is where the things that come forth from non-love are created: greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. God is love and God CANNOT create those things. But those things come into existence when we turn away from God.
Perhaps the "I create the light and form the darkness... I make peace and create evil" is just God taking responsiblity for subjecting us to this futility, like I said before. But God doesn't actually bring evil (non-love) into existence. He "creates" it because without Him, it would not be created in the first place. Without LOVE to turn AWAY from, non-love would not exist. Nothing would exist. So in a sense, God DOES create evil, but not the way people think.
This just makes sense to me but I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else. I agree with pneuma but I'm not entirely sure if pneuma is saying the same thing or not. I don't know.
When we walk the narrow (path of love, life) we walk towards God. What is created on that path is of God.
When we walk the wide (path of non-love, death) we walk away from God. What is created on that path is not of God. Not created by God. Not guided into by God.
God cannot tempt or force or guide anyone towards anything that is on the path of non-love.
It is an impossibility in my eyes.
just my thoughts.
subject to change if I start to see something that I didn't see before.
peace..
Hi sis, we are very close in understanding, the freewill God gave man is what God takes responsibility for, sin, evil and all other bad things would not have come into existence without mans turning from God or falling from the tree.
God gave man his inheritance, God is not the one who made man waste his inheritance, but God will rejoice and welcome His children back home form the place of the dead when they repent of THEIR doings and return to the Father.
Let me try to explain my viewpoint a bit further.
In my mind, these two statements:
are equivalent.
If God created people who turn away from the path of love and have the capacity for murder (non-love), and God knew this would happen, then He has effectively created murderers, indirectly or directly, depending on how you want to describe it.
However creating murderers was not the point or purpose.
And if your understanding of what God knew would happen is in error, what then brother?
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I agree with alot of what you say here too sparrow. I tried to explain a bit more with us coming to understand the sum of all truth. God didn't create sin, but understanding sin is required to understand the truth. In a sense, non-love exists as part of this knowledge. But that is not the point.
And I definitely agree with you that the point is to come to understand LOVE, and to do that we MUST experience non-love.
The only problem is Jesus NEVER had to sin or have sin sowed within in order to understand LOVE.
The truth, the way, the life and the LOVE are only seen in Christ, any other truth is non-truth any other way is the wrong way, any other life is the wrong life, any other love is no love at all.
I do not beleve there is a God up in the sky manipulating the world and causing it go against its own will.
What I do believe is that God resides in us,and whether we believe it or not,consciously( if you are awakened) or unconsciously we live by Him.......... For the scripture tells us, in Him we live and move and have our being.
Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Proverbs 4:23 . It might as well read "guard your imagination for whatever you think and imagine to be true( good or evil)will harden into fact".
While we remain asleep thinking God is up in the sky steering the ship we will be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and blame God, the devil and everyone else for the world we have created for ourselves. We by our imagination are the cause and effect of the world we have created for ourselves.
Paul instructed us to think upon lovely things, noble things and whatever is good and true for this very purpose of guarding our hearts.
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
I agree with the above and I think that is similar to what I posted.
But....as to the bolded in blue, I do not believe that God is withdrawing the light. I believe we withdraw ourselves from the light. I see a difference there between God withdrawing light, and us humans withdrawing ourselves away from the light. A pretty big difference.
Yes it is a very big difference sis, and Eby states God created the darkness by turning off the light, however even using his translation of that scripture that is NOT what it says.
Darkness was already upon the face of the earth, and God said let there be light and God SEPERATED the light from the darkness.
I understand what you are saying .sparrow. I believe that when God made Adam, Adam was good, but not perfect.
I agree with that, it is what I have been saying all along.
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He was lacking something because if he had been perfect, then he would not have disobeyed.
What he was lacking was maturity, he was a babe in understanding and like any baby did not hear properly (which is the meaning of Adams disobedience in in Ro.5:19) By Adams not hearing properly (which failing to understand) Adam did that which seemed right in his own eyes (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death).
For as by one man’s disobedience (failure to hear properly or understand) many were made sinners, so by the obedience ( hearing properly or understanding ) of one shall many be made righteous
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He would have known better but he didn't. I believe that God knew what He would do and made him the way he was for a purpose. I think that someone shared that being made into God's image is a process that we are still going through. There were so many things that Adam did not know, so many qualities that he did not have that only come through this whole experience. Anyway, that just what I believe. Thanks for your feedback.
I also agree that it is a process, one from immaturity to maturity. But what I see that is different then you guys is that the process of going from immaturity to maturity is through Christ and only through Christ, the way the truth and the life.
What you guys are holding to is that the process is that way which seemeth right unto a man.
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Another thing to consider is that if evil and sin came into a perfect creation all on its own, without God's knowledge of it coming or happening, being independent of the knowledge of God, then the same thing could happen again and again in the future couldn't it? God bless and peace.
If sin and death are no more and Christ is alive in us all sis how can it happen again?
However if sin and evil comes from God, they are a part of who He is (out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh) so what assurance do we have that that part of Him will never happen again.
What was referred to earlier by Cimaroon, is that mankind's sin proceeds from out of the heart. God who created all things created man of the flesh, of the earth and knew exactly what would happen because He knows all things. (1 John 3:20) He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, planted it in the garden, and He also created the crooked serpent which appealed to Eve's flesh.
"Why then does James say "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed…? James said those words because they are true. God himself does not force us to sin. He doesn't have to force us to sin. He created us of the dust, corruptible. We came this way from the Creator's hand. Adam was flesh and blood which "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; and he was this way from the Creator's hand." M. Vinson
I believe that satan is more than the flesh because Paul tells us that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against powers in the heavenly places. I believe that satan appeals to the flesh just as he did with Adam and Eve.
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-07-2012 at 09:54 AM..
Oh, I think you are misunderstanding me maybe. I believe as you do in what you stated above.
Absolutely, without a doubt, I believe that darkness had to made known in order for us to understand the light. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was put in the garden for just that purpose. We've all heard some people say "oh if only A&E had never disobeyed! boo hoo!" No, they are wrong in thinking that because A&E would have remained ignorant. If we had only known the light, with no knowledge of the darkness then we would never know what the light was. We would have no comprehension. I just don't believe that God forces our hand or our thoughts to do evil. I guess it's just the mechanism of how the darkness is created that I see in a slightly different way.
I believe that we see through the glass darkly, we are living behind veils. We don't see properly. I believe this is God's doing.
So in a way, you could say God withdrew the light, yes. God is ultimately responsible for His creation. He "creates evil" by having us living in a world where our vision is temporarily (for a purpose) obscured. I fully understand the need for this. It's the whole meaning behind this life, in my eyes. We need to LEARN. This is the only way.
So, for me it's more that God is not forcing or causing a person's hand to harm another, yet he is ultimately responsible because he has allowed us to live in a world where we are able to not fully see God. Or you might put it, in a world where we are hiding from God.... "adam where are you?" and what results is our capacity for darkness. But it is the only way we, as a whole, can learn.
This is really difficult to put into words.
Sis for me the confusion goes away if we look to Jesus, He was in a corrupt world with sin and evil all around but never partook of that which was around Him. He understood evil and good yet never partook of the evil. All His ways were light and life.
As He is suppose to be our example, I do not see the need for us partaking of sin and evil.
Part of the problem as I see it sis is that many see in Adam a part of God plan, but for me Christ is and always was Gods plan.
Gods ways are not mans ways
The ways of man lead to death.
Is it not then obvious if Gods ways are not mans ways, and mans ways lead to death, that Gods ways then have nothing to do with the ways of death?
45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,
46 but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.
47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;
48 as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly;
49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly.
The way I read it is being earthy, of the flesh. Adam was of the flesh and did not have the fullness of God dwelling in him but Jesus came in the flesh but He was from heaven, with the fulness of God in Him. God bless and peace.
Look at the green underlined word in your qoute.
Adam was created a son of God, failed to hear properly (understand), fell to the earth and became corrupted.
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