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Hey Scarlet, very, very interesting article. I read it through, it mirrors a lot of what I have believed. It helps to read it a few times especially with the Bible present for I was able to fill in the blanks of some questions I had. Thank you so much for sharing it. I would encourage others to read it as well.
Man was disobedient, so yes he was a bad fruit but God's creation is not yet complete. He is still working in his creation until he completes his work on the seventh day. When he is finished working in his creation, it will be the perfect fruit.
Look at it in terms of, God is creating a building and the end product is not yet complete even though he has completed the blueprint (his spoken word).
Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
You see God is good, and for that purpose we can be assured that we will ALL be good fruit, for the Creator's end product can be nothing but good. He is still working. It is not yet complete!!!
In other words we know none will perish for then the tree that was good(God) would have produce bad fruit(his children who perished), and that is impossible!!!!
Genesis 2:1-3
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So we know that God completes his work on the seventh day. When is the seventh day? It is the sabbath day of rest.
Leviticus 23:3
Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation;
Notice that the sabbath day was also a holy convocation. It is a holy gathering; when he gathers us all.
Has the sabbath already occurred? No, hence why the fruit is not yet good. The sabbath is still to come. God is not yet finished, He has not yet made all things new.
Hebrews 4:4-10
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Cimaroon I agree with most of what you wrote there except the part where God created bad fruit.
Look at those scriptures again
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Now I understand you are saying this bad fruit will become good fruit when God has completed His work. However it is simply impossible for a good tree to produce evil fruit to begin with.
Basically what you are saying is that the good tree produces first evil fruit then good fruit.
Everything God creates is good, even in seed form, for the seed of a fruit gets its life from the tree that it is attached to. You simply cannot say the seed is evil but that evil seed will become a good fruit. Good seeds bring forth good fruit.
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
It is good seed that God sowed brother and only good seed.
you either believe the words of Christ or you don't
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
So then I take it you do not believe that God is the only Creator and I guess you also do no believe him when he said:
The word is clear...you just don't believe!
Brother this is the second time in this thread you have made this type of statement.
Do you not realise how self serving and prideful those type of statements are? When was it that you became infallible in the understanding of scripture?
Just because I do not agree with your understanding of the scriptures does not mean I do not believe the scriptures.
Quote:
John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and also Colossains 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
I agree with those scriptures, and I have explained the way I see them, that you disagree with what I put forth does not mean I disagree with those scriptures.
Everything God created was good, but became corrupt when the fruit fell from the tree.
By your understanding these are also created by God.
I believe that if we start from the very beginning we will begin to see that we agree on much more things than we disagree, the rest we can iron out.
Can we try that?
I can't see how one can "iron out" things we disagree on, when the end game of the universalist doctrine rewards the unbeliever the same salvation to believers.
The only way that is possible to have a "truce" is to wantonly ignore and or purposefully leave out where the Bible specifically reads otherwise.
God is the same. Psalm 5:5
The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you [the LORD God] hate all who do wrong.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his [the LORD God] soul hates.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.â€
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil; I am the Lord, Who does ALL these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
"Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked"? (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
"For to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it."(Romans 8:20)
"By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens; HIS HAND hath formed the crooked serpent." (Job 26:13)
"Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Genesis 3:1).
That verse (Genesis 3:1) states that 1. the nature of the serpent is a BEAST - and 2. GOD MADE HIM.
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. - For ALL THINGS originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen! (Romans 11:36)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuin
PS - Comment on Genesis 3:1 above - Not BEAST as in literal wild animal - but the point being that the serpent was another creation of God - as were the beasts of the field - just to clarify.
Yes the serpent was created by God, but the serpent was not created satan, it became satan.
No scripture states God created satan or the devil.
Take a hard look at this scriture you qouted.
For ALL THINGS originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.
So are you saying like Cimaroon and others that sin originated with Christ? and Came from Christ?
So are you saying like Cimaroon and others that sin originated with Christ? and Came from Christ?
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil; I am the Lord, Who does ALL these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
God locks up all together in unbelief, that He should have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32)
Isaiah 45:7 shows us WHO creates evil, Romans 11:32 shows us the purpose of evil: contrast. Without sin and evil, we can never know the sweet deliverance of God’s mercy and grace. Not only does He create evil, but He brings evil upon us:
"He is wise and will bring evil" (Isaiah 31:2).
It says; God WILL BRING EVIL.
God does not sit back and hope evil happens. Rather, He actively makes it happen. These three passages tell us that God is not merely allowing evil to happen. God is actively bringing it for the eventual good of His creation.
Quote:
Originally posted by pneuma,
No scripture states God created satan or the devil.
"By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens; HIS HAND hath formed the crooked serpent." (Job 26:13)
"Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Genesis 3:1).
Also, John tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning....." (John 8:44)
The beginning of what? John further goes on to tell us that lying is the devil's very nature:
".....When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
What is "natural" to him means that his intrinsic nature (what he IS - how he was made to be - from the beginning) is to lie and to murder. That is the devil's NATURE - what he is made of.
[w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil; I am the Lord, Who does ALL these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
You obviously have not read the whole thread, read post # 17 as I have addressed that scripture many times. So reposting it again and again will change nothing.
Quote:
God locks up all together in unbelief, that He should have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32)
Isaiah 45:7 shows us WHO creates evil, Romans 11:32 shows us the purpose of evil: contrast. Without sin and evil, we can never know the sweet deliverance of God’s mercy and grace. Not only does He create evil, but He brings evil upon us:
Your taking Ro.11:32 out of context. It is not speaking of all peoples, it is speaking of the Jews. And those scriptures also tell us that it was because of their own unbelief that this happened to them.
Quote:
"He is wise and will bring evil" (Isaiah 31:2).
It says; God WILL BRING EVIL.
God does not sit back and hope evil happens. Rather, He actively makes it happen. These three passages tell us that God is not merely allowing evil to happen. God is actively bringing it for the eventual good of His creation.
That is a babies understanding of the Father. Those who had the Father revealed to them by Jesus state God is love, love worketh NO evil and love thinketh NO evil. I have also covered this in many posts bro/sis so you will have to read through some of my posts as I am not going to go through it all again as It is to time consuming.
Quote:
"By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens; HIS HAND hath formed the crooked serpent." (Job 26:13)
"Now THE SERPENT was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE" (Genesis 3:1).
Also, John tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning....." (John 8:44)
The beginning of what? John further goes on to tell us that lying is the devil's very nature:
".....When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
What is "natural" to him means that his intrinsic nature (what he IS - how he was made to be - from the beginning) is to lie and to murder. That is the devil's NATURE - what he is made of.
You still have not given a scripture that states God created satan or the devil, all you have done is try to explain some scriptures as you see them.
Did you know the crooked can mean noble? So how do you know that the scripture does not read " His hand created the noble serpent".
Yes the devil was the first murderer and he did so because of his own fallen will/nature.
And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. 15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. 18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. 19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
To state that God is the creator of the devil, sin and evil is the same as saying He is divided against Himself and therefore His kingdom cannot stand. If God casts out the devil and He was the one who put the devil there in the first place, He is dividing His house, and a house divided cannot stand.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Brother what do these scriptures say to you? For obviously they must mean something to you other then what I have been saying. So what do they mean?
I believe God's work will ultimately result in the best fruit possible. We are in the middle of that process. We do not see the full fruition yet.
Quote:
The disobedience spoken of in regards to Adams disobedience means a failure to hear properly or hear amiss. Failure to hear properly is not a sin, but is the prequel of sin. Adam's failure to hear properly severed him from the tree of life, which in turn cause him to fall to the earth, and just as an apple when it falls to the earth becomes rotten, Adam nature became corrupt.
This does not explain how God's creation can be called good fruit, since God's creation disobeyed Him.
Pneuma, you cannot in good faith say that everything God created was initially good, when we know that man disobeyed, and that an angel disobeyed Him and became Satan (that is, if you beileve Satan is a being - can you confirm that either way to help understand where you are coming from? - thanks). If everything was initially good, no one and no thing would have disobeyed God.
So your premise doesn't follow. According to your explanation, God created bad fruit since they all disobeyed.
This is how I see what you are saying and why I cannot understand your view.
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