Fundamentalist vs. Universalist...let's call a truce! (disciples, eternal, people)
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It does when context does. And that's been my emphasis. The principal idea of creation is present in both passages. However the immediate context in Isaiah includes the idea of "forming", "making" and "establishing" the earth to be inhabited by man. And that is the context under consideration and the reason why the Hebrew word tōhû is used differently in Isa 45:18 than it is in Genesis 1:2.
You still have not made your case here. And the reason is you've not really grasped the context of what Isa 45:18 is telling us.
And the idea of forming comes AFTER God created the heavens and the earth, not when God created the heavens and the earth. Thus we see both verses in Isaiah.
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Where in that scripture do you see God creating the earth without form?
God did not created the earth without form, the heavens and the earth were already completely made at the time, then the earth became without form and empty, then God goes on to form a new heaven and earth to be inhabited because the old had become without form and void.
One of the problems here brother is you look at these scriptures as something that has already taken place, while I see them as God creating the new heavens and earth. Something that is taking place right now.
Just look at the world around you brother, it is full of darkness and empty.
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In the way you use it, yes. The heart is not simply being "cut", but rather "created" new. A new creation is in view. As that and many other scriptures tell us. I recall this very discussion in the isa 45:7 thread.
Does not matter brother division or separation is the means used to make the new creation.
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The word "separated" is not being translated from the Hebrew word bārā, but rather bāḏal. Two different words with two different and distinct meanings. Again, simply more grasping at air.
You missed the point, bara separates or divides, so of course they are two different words with two different meaning. The Word of God (two edged sword) is a different word then the division it does, yet that division came from the Word of God.
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God does not "do" evil. But rather God has "ordained" evil to be the proximate consequence of sin. Nevertheless, all of these things fall under God's ultimate divine providence. Throughout scripture we find this revealed time and time again.
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So according to your understanding God creates all these things.
GK - 8273 { [r'
} & 8274 { [r'
adj
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
Yet we are told that because of these evil's God judges man. It is these evil's Christ redeemed us from. It is the same evil's that come from the corrupted heart of man. It is these same evils we are to turn away from.
And yet you believe God does these things, which reminds me of this scripture
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
All these corruptible things men do, you attribute to God, and have changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into the image of corruptible man.
Now if we go with my translation
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Is it not easy to see that light cuts down the darkness, and the peace cuts down the evil?
And God said let there be light, did not that creative act cut down the darkness.
Evil begets evil, love begets love.
Evil does not beget love, nor does love beget evil.
We overcome evil with good, not with more evil.
Create/bara is a word of division or separation, but until you can understand that we will always disagree on this subject.
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Do you have a scripture that supports your idea that "disobedience, sin and death" somehow occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? The narrative in Genesis does not give any indication for us to believe that.
Well you don't like the Isaiah one, but it is shown all through the scriptures.
Declaring the end from the beginning,( in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth )and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. ( In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.)
Brother everything written is written towards the NEW CREATION.
Chapter 1 verse 1 is God declaring the end from the beginning and that end is a new heaven and earth.
Chapter 2 show what happened that brought the chaos into the earth.
Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. James 3:11-12
Pneuma and Pcamps or anyone else please explain: Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Did the creature conceive vanity or was the creature subjected to vanity?
Was it the creature's choice to conceive vanity or be subjected to vanity?
Pneuma and Pcamps or anyone else please explain: Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Did the creature conceive vanity or was the creature subjected to vanity?
Was it the creature's choice to conceive vanity or be subjected to vanity?
Who subjected us in hope?
Those who continually behold the glory of the Lord walk calmly above this world subjected to vanity ( the vanity it subjected itself to) for God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in it, but man just separated himself from God in his mind, then looked to himself, and became subject to it.
Today man is subjected to it while he beholds it, while he beholds Jesus Christ he is being liberated from being subjected to it,into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome it.
No something that is good CANNOT produce bad works. Is God good? Yet you have Him producing bad works.
Was the tree of knowledge of good and evil a good tree or a bad tree. I would say it was a bad tree because Adam and Eve died after eating of its fruit. Who put the tree there? Who made that tree?
Those who continually behold the glory of the Lord walk calmly above this world subjected to vanity ( the vanity it subjected itself to) for God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in it, but man just separated himself from God in his mind, then looked to himself, and became subject to it.
Today man is subjected to it while he beholds it, while he beholds Jesus Christ he is being liberated from being subjected to it,into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome it.
Are you serious...human reasoning oh boy!
The verse says it was God who subjected the creature to vanity and it is God who subjected the same creature in hope.
Yes God is good and ALL (not some) of His works are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance.
I see that you felt the need to correct me in the above quote only thing is you never understood what I said....couldn't it be the same way with God's word?
I said
God is good and some of His works are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance.
I never meant some of his works are love while others are hate
What I was saying is that these are some of his works. Some of his works are also mercy, patience etc.
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