Fundamentalist vs. Universalist...let's call a truce! (rejoice, mentioned, gods)

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by legoman

Hi sparrow,

Let me try to explain my viewpoint a bit further.
In my mind, these two statements:


are equivalent.

If God created people who turn away from the path of love and have the capacity for murder (non-love), and God knew this would happen, then He has effectively created murderers, indirectly or directly, depending on how you want to describe it.

Let me think on that for awhile.
Sometimes I wonder if everyone is seeing the same thing, but we're all just wording it strangely. lol.
ok, probably not.

thanks for responding, friend.

[ShanaBrown]

This is a great study. This is where my thinking is right now. I believe that God knows all things, that all is out of God for His purposes, and as the book of John states, " apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being." If He knows all things, and brought it into existence, He caused it to happen. These words by P. Eby pretty much state what I believe. I was wondering what you guys think. God bless and peace. (caps from online source)

"His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says. "Surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word RA which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used! But how could God do this? The answer is so simple, so plain, so basic, we blush and bow our heads with shame even for the asking! How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light! Anyone can perform this simple feat at any hour of the day or night. The sequence is totally correct, as we read in Isa. 45:7, "I FORM THE LIGHT, and create darkness." The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness. But the light came first, and therefore is always able to swallow up the darkness into light itself again. "The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out" (Jn. 1:5, Phillips). The light will always conquer darkness, but darkness shall never conquer light. But to create darkness - it is only necessary to withdraw the light!
Another illustration: Life is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life. Death witnesses to how great LIFE really is! But life will not tell you anything at all about death, for as long as there be life, death is non-existent. But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Now, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements. God withheld light. He withheld truth. He withheld life. In the same way a hormonal imbalance in a human being can cause excruciating pain, sickness, stunted growth, vicious temper, mental illness, or create a psychopathic killer - so a SPIRITUAL or PSYCHICAL deficiency or imbalance produces a spiritually deranged personality out of character with the perfect nature of God. It is not that the devil has no truth - even the truth he has is a lie for it is truth out of balance, partial truth, a half-truth, which, though it contains an element of truth, is not truth at all, but a lie."

God bless and peace.

[Illuin]

Originally posted by ShanaBrown,

This is a great study. This is where my thinking is right now. I believe that God knows all things, that all is out of God for His purposes, and as the book of John states, " apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being." If He knows all things, and brought it into existence, He caused it to happen. These words by P. Eby pretty much state what I believe. I was wondering what you guys think. God bless and peace. (caps from online source)

"His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says. "Surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word RA which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used! But how could God do this? The answer is so simple, so plain, so basic, we blush and bow our heads with shame even for the asking! How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light! Anyone can perform this simple feat at any hour of the day or night. The sequence is totally correct, as we read in Isa. 45:7, "I FORM THE LIGHT, and create darkness." The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness. But the light came first, and therefore is always able to swallow up the darkness into light itself again. "The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out" (Jn. 1:5, Phillips). The light will always conquer darkness, but darkness shall never conquer light. But to create darkness - it is only necessary to withdraw the light!
Another illustration: Life is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life. Death witnesses to how great LIFE really is! But life will not tell you anything at all about death, for as long as there be life, death is non-existent. But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Now, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements. God withheld light. He withheld truth. He withheld life. In the same way a hormonal imbalance in a human being can cause excruciating pain, sickness, stunted growth, vicious temper, mental illness, or create a psychopathic killer - so a SPIRITUAL or PSYCHICAL deficiency or imbalance produces a spiritually deranged personality out of character with the perfect nature of God. It is not that the devil has no truth - even the truth he has is a lie for it is truth out of balance, partial truth, a half-truth, which, though it contains an element of truth, is not truth at all, but a lie."

That's exactly how I see it. Can't be stated any better than that.

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

This is a great study. This is where my thinking is right now. I believe that God knows all things, that all is out of God for His purposes, and as the book of John states, " apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being." If He knows all things, and brought it into existence, He caused it to happen. These words by P. Eby pretty much state what I believe. I was wondering what you guys think. God bless and peace. (caps from online source)

"His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says. "Surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word RA which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used! But how could God do this? The answer is so simple, so plain, so basic, we blush and bow our heads with shame even for the asking! How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light! Anyone can perform this simple feat at any hour of the day or night. The sequence is totally correct, as we read in Isa. 45:7, "I FORM THE LIGHT, and create darkness." The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness. But the light came first, and therefore is always able to swallow up the darkness into light itself again. "The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out" (Jn. 1:5, Phillips). The light will always conquer darkness, but darkness shall never conquer light. But to create darkness - it is only necessary to withdraw the light!

I agree with the above and I think that is similar to what I posted.
But....as to the bolded in blue, I do not believe that God is withdrawing the light. I believe we withdraw ourselves from the light. I see a difference there between God withdrawing light, and us humans withdrawing ourselves away from the light. A pretty big difference.

[ShanaBrown]

I understand what you are saying .sparrow. I believe that when God made Adam, Adam was good, but not perfect. He was lacking something because if he had been perfect, then he would not have disobeyed. He would have known better but he didn't. I believe that God knew what He would do and made him the way he was for a purpose. I think that someone shared that being made into God's image is a process that we are still going through. There were so many things that Adam did not know, so many qualities that he did not have that only come through this whole experience. Anyway, that just what I believe. Thanks for your feedback.

Another thing to consider is that if evil and sin came into a perfect creation all on its own, without God's knowledge of it coming or happening, being independent of the knowledge of God, then the same thing could happen again and again in the future couldn't it? God bless and peace.

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

I understand what you are saying .sparrow. I believe that when God made Adam, Adam was good, but not perfect. He was lacking something because if he had been perfect, then he would not have disobeyed. He would have known better but he didn't. I believe that God knew what He would do and made him the way he was for a purpose. I think that someone shared that being made into God's image is a process that we are still going through. There were so many things that Adam did not know, so many qualities that he did not have that only come through this whole experience. Anyway, that just what I believe. Thanks for your feedback.

Another thing to consider is that if evil and sin came into a perfect creation all on its own, without God's knowledge of it coming or happening, being independent of the knowledge of God, then the same thing could happen again and again in the future couldn't it? God bless and peace.

Hi Shana...

Oh, I think you are misunderstanding me maybe. I believe as you do in what you stated above.

Absolutely, without a doubt, I believe that darkness had to made known in order for us to understand the light. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was put in the garden for just that purpose. We've all heard some people say "oh if only A&E had never disobeyed! boo hoo!" No, they are wrong in thinking that because A&E would have remained ignorant. If we had only known the light, with no knowledge of the darkness then we would never know what the light was. We would have no comprehension. I just don't believe that God forces our hand or our thoughts to do evil. I guess it's just the mechanism of how the darkness is created that I see in a slightly different way.

I believe that we see through the glass darkly, we are living behind veils. We don't see properly. I believe this is God's doing.
So in a way, you could say God withdrew the light, yes. God is ultimately responsible for His creation. He "creates evil" by having us living in a world where our vision is temporarily (for a purpose) obscured. I fully understand the need for this. It's the whole meaning behind this life, in my eyes. We need to LEARN. This is the only way.

So, for me it's more that God is not forcing or causing a person's hand to harm another, yet he is ultimately responsible because he has allowed us to live in a world where we are able to not fully see God. Or you might put it, in a world where we are hiding from God.... "adam where are you?" and what results is our capacity for darkness. But it is the only way we, as a whole, can learn.

This is really difficult to put into words.

[pneuma]

I believe God's work will ultimately result in the best fruit possible. We are in the middle of that process. We do not see the full fruition yet.

Yet the scriptures state that the seed that was sown was good, and as a good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit one should be able to understand that what God created was good.

This does not explain how God's creation can be called good fruit, since God's creation disobeyed Him.
Pneuma, you cannot in good faith say that everything God created was initially good, when we know that man disobeyed, and that an angel disobeyed Him and became Satan (that is, if you beileve Satan is a being - can you confirm that either way to help understand where you are coming from? - thanks). If everything was initially good, no one and no thing would have disobeyed God.

So your premise doesn't follow. According to your explanation, God created bad fruit since they all disobeyed.

This is how I see what you are saying and why I cannot understand your view.

Lego I already explained it as well as I can in post 315.

[pneuma]

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one pneuma.

We can do that

You say that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate.

No man was created a Holy temple, Satan is a different creation then man but was still created good.

However, JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)


It is the devil's NATURE to lie. The nature of something is its inborn or hereditary characteristics which are an influence and/or determinant of their personality. It is the basic, innate, inherent features - the intrinsic (God given), essential qualities or character of something. Therefore, Satan must have had these innate qualities from, as Jesus said, THE BEGINNING.

And that nature came from his fallen nature, not the nature he was created with.
Murderer from the beginning can also mean he was the first murderer.
Question: How long was the beginning? A book has a beginning, middle and end; so how long was the beginning?

To repeat and enlarge legoman's point. Consider this. You ask: How COULD an all-wise and holy God create an evil Devil? I ask: If an all-wise and omnipotent God created a being with the inherent ability and potential to rebel against Him and become evil; and He knew beforehand that this being would rebel and become evil, is God then any LESS responsible for creating the devil?

Your understanding of God's foreknowledge of an event and mine differ where man is concerned brother. As you are fairly new to this forum I am going to give my understanding on some things again, which is something I really did not want to do as it is time consuming and I have been over it many times already.

God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.
God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.
When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.
However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.
We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.

Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.

Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge isALWAYSstatic. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?

Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.

Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.

That Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance that when we use our freewill and become disobedient to God, God will remould and remould us as many times as need be to make us into a vessel of honour. Our freewill cannot stop God from doing all His pleasure, as He will just keep responding to the movement of the clay until the clay is made into a vessel of honour.

However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.

Let’s see if this is also true.

2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would dieof his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.

Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would?

If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?

Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?

Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20

Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.

Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.

Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.


If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?

Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.


Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.

I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.


And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me


Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.

Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man, He searches out the intent of man’s heart and knows what man will do before man does it.

It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.

Back to the scriptures I just gave.

What those scriptures show is that God knewjust before(30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.

Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.

Remember what God said to Pharaoh, a notoriously rebellious man: "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED THEE UP, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9: 17)

Understanding Romans 9

I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.

Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.

These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.

So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.

Individually

Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.

Jeremiah 18:1-6


The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:

So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.

Now read in Romans 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.

The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?

Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.

Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.

So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.

What is Gods aim for every vessel?

It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.

Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.

What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.

Collectively

Jeremiah 18:11-12 states

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.

However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?

Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.

Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.

Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.

The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.

Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.


The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.

Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.

God said: "I have created the waster to destroy" (Isaiah 54:16)

Read that scripture in the Septuagint for a totally different understanding.

Nature itself confirms that God creates opposing forces. The fundamental law of creation is that an OPPOSING FORCE is necessary for balance and growth. No object could hold together without an opposing force to keep it from flying apart. The earth tries to fly away from the sun, but gravity holds it in orbit. Electrons try to fly away from the nucleus of an atom, but opposing forces hold it together. We have a positive and negative charge; a north and south pole, etc. God created day and night. God created black (the absence of color) and white (full saturation). These natural phenomenon are but a type of what is spiritual.

This is how God rolls. God creates and uses opposing forces in everything He does. God creates and uses opposing forces in the physical realm to bring perfect harmony to His universe. God creates and uses opposing forces in the spiritual realm to bring perfect harmony to His family.

God created light and called it day and separated the light from the darkness, which he called night, but the darkness was already here.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by legoman

I pretty much agree with you here Iluin.

BTW pneuma doesn't believe God is omnipotent either.

Originally Posted by legoman

Sorry I mis-spoke. Pneuma doesn't believe God is omniscient.

You mis-spoke both times brother, for you misrepresent what I believe.

Just because my understanding of omnipotent is different then yours does not mean I do not believe God is omnipotent.

People need to get over themselves with the thinking that if one does not agree with them on something, they state that the one in disagreement does not believe in such and such.

It simply is not the truth and it is baring false witness against your brother.

[ShanaBrown]

Absolutely, without a doubt, I believe that darkness had to made known in order for us to understand the light. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was put in the garden for just that purpose. We've all heard some people say "oh if only A&E had never disobeyed! boo hoo!" No, they are wrong in thinking that because A&E would have remained ignorant. If we had only known the light, with no knowledge of the darkness then we would never know what the light was. We would have no comprehension. I just don't believe that God forces our hand or our thoughts to do evil. I guess it's just the mechanism of how the darkness is created that I see in a slightly different way.

I believe that we see through the glass darkly, we are living behind veils. We don't see properly. I believe this is God's doing.
So in a way, you could say God withdrew the light, yes. God is ultimately responsible for His creation. He "creates evil" by having us living in a world where our vision is temporarily (for a purpose) obscured. I fully understand the need for this. It's the whole meaning behind this life, in my eyes. We need to LEARN. This is the only way.

So, for me it's more that God is not forcing or causing a person's hand to harm another, yet he is ultimately responsible because he has allowed us to live in a world where we are able to not fully see God. Or you might put it, in a world where we are hiding from God.... "adam where are you?" and what results is our capacity for darkness. But it is the only way we, as a whole, can learn.

This is really difficult to put into words.

I understand what you are saying .sparrow and I basically agree with this. I don't believe that God makes us sin or do evil either but that He designed things so that it would be a part of our experience for His purposes. I agree with much of what Cimaroon shared about the flesh and I want to read it again. Thanks for sharing and God bless and peace.