If Eternal Torment were true . . . (sinners, Adam, Romans, witness)
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I think it is better if you articulate your own views, and let others srticulate theirs. Every time you try to speak for others, you end up misrepresenting their views and putting words in their mouths.
Jesus tried, He opened their eyes, and drew them, and He did all this many times, but they refused to come. That is what He said. It is not my personal opinon. Or are you saying Jesus meant "I told them to come, but at the same time I sabotaged their mind, and made it impossible for them to come. HEH-HEH-HEH. It's a lot of fun. You should have seen the looks on their faces".
I think it is better if you articulate your own views, and let others srticulate theirs. Every time you try to speak for others, you end up misrepresenting their views and putting words in their mouths.
Jesus tried, He opened their eyes, and drew them, and He did all this many times, but they refused to come. That is what He said. It is not my personal opinon. Or are you saying Jesus meant "I told them to come, but at the same time I sabotaged their mind, and made it impossible for them to come. HEH-HEH-HEH. It's a lot of fun. You should have seen the looks on their faces".
Ask yourself Finn why Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden. There is a reason for this, just like there is a reason that God is hidden from the wise and intelligent. For all who are not hearing and seeing at this time is for their benefit.
By the way I am not misrepresenting what you believe, I 100% disagree with what you believe and i am using scriptures to point out why. You ultimately believe man's free will is what brings him to God and also keeps him from God, this is no misrepresentation of your belief, you are continually saying such. You also believe man by free will can resist the will of God, but God cannot resist man's free will, this is no misrepresentation, you are continually saying such.
Does a human being choose to be born? Or was he forced into it..?
God created a human being.
God is ultimately responsible for that Creation.
Always the same thing- putting human attributes on God. RESPONSIBLE - means to respond...For human beings to survive we need to be constantly responding to each other. God is not dependent on mankind for survival- There is no such thing - seeing that it is eternal..We are responsible for each other..God is responsible to no one. We are on our own..That is just the nature of creation...It is like a child who is of age- you set that child free- to sink or swim...Mankind is the same way...He creates us and sets us free..to become in time like him- if we can and try...
There may as well not be a God. And those that say "God bless" would be better off to do the blessing themselves - that is what God expects...evolution of man...He created us and it is our duty and purpose to evolve. As we evolve we become more distant from God...............and at the same time we draw more near to him.........This is contradictory because we put things in physical terms and follow laws of physics- God is not physical..
One time I was going through a difficult time...I was separated from everyone I love- I was alone...It was the dead of night...I stood under the stars on the side of a road...There was no sound...it was 20 below zero..and I thought about God...HE is a cold and distant companion...a loyal friend..but so far away...our lives are a journey back home------------back home to the warm loving arms of our father.
Being of God in human form can be difficult- Don't expect God to send you a new car because you are embarrassed of the old one....He does send exactly what we need to keep on going..
It is strange - this existence...but it is an adventure and a miracle...something we wish for our own children...and interesting and dynamic life- with sorrow and joy...with hope and fear- with comfort and eternal loneliness...Children want their own life, separate from us...And we want the same thing... a life separate from God....but knowing if we falter and fall...Dad will come running - our father in heaven will save you....or he might not...God does not have emotions....except one........and we all know what that is.
Which is indicative of an immature understanding of love.
And therein lies the problem/the barrier.
An immature understanding of love which is an immature/incomplete understanding of God, for God IS love.
Great posts sparrow, Pleroo, and pcamps.
To argue that love cannot be forced is IMHO to misunderstand what love is. Love is not just an ooey-gooey feeling. Love is an action.
Love is being patient. Love is being kind. Love is protecting. Love is enduring and waiting.
So if God is patient with us, kind to us, and even ultimately protects us... is God "forcing" love on us?
Love is sacrifice for another. God demonstrated that with the sacrifice of His son for all mankind. Does that mean God "forced" his love on all mankind?
NO it means He showed and demonstrated His love for all mankind. God loved all mankind.
You don't force love. You just do it. That's not to say love is not a force - in the sense that it is a force that draws and attracts people.
So the whole argument about "forcing" love is misplaced.
No, they reject the warped view of love/God that ET presents.
You may be surprised to hear this, but some people reject everything about God, and it has nothing to do with ET. It is not ET they reject, it is the love and eternal life they reject.
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They don't teach that God's love is irresistible and able to accomplish God's will, however. That's why they resort to threats ... believe or else.
Would you take is as a threat if I told you to NOT jump off a building, because the fall would kill you? It would not be a threat, would it, so why take is as such?
No, they reject the warped view of love/God that ET presents.
They don't teach that God's love is irresistible and able to accomplish God's will, however. That's why they resort to threats ... believe or else.
'Love me or burn forever' is not love. It is a threat, blackmail, coercion - the ultimate aim of a petty tyrant or dictator - a mafia 'god-father' style offer-you-can't-refuse.
The reason people do refuse it is because they reject the absurdity of it.
The reason people accept this type of offer is out of fear.
Fear is the beginning of wisdom, but not the end.
Love is the end, and drives out all fear.
When you reach that end - which is love - you will realize the offer was never 'Love me or burn forever'.
An immature understanding of love which is an immature/incomplete understanding of God, for God IS love.
Makes sense, sparrow. We can only comprehend God to the extent that we have experienced love (both the giving and the receiving of it).
It's funny you said this, because I was just thinking about it a couple of hours ago. I think there is a natural inclination for many of us to equate being loved by God with being "blessed". In other words, if I'm happy, healthy and relatively comfortable in life, then it's easy to believe God loves me. But then the question that raises is what about all the people who don't have happy life circumstances at any moment (or for most or all of their lives)? Where's the love of God for them?
And the only conclusion I can come to is that humanity, alone, is the conduit for God's love. We experience divine love through loving others and loving self, and to the degree we are able to do that at any given moment, is the degree to which we experience God. God's spirit is always present WITHIN us AS LOVE (because God IS love). So, loving ourselves and each other, and receiving love from others, is how we can each experience the assurance that we are never alone or abandoned, as Jesus said. (This sort of ties in to Oleg's post as well, partially in agreement, partially not.)
Last edited by Pleroo; 07-18-2012 at 12:44 PM..
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