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All three of these phrases are referring to speaking in tongues. This is because the phraseology assumes that there was something that Peter and those with him saw with their eyes. "The Spirit fell upon them" is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit because the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a "falling upon" -- it is a "coming within." The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit because the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a "pouring out" -- it is a "coming within." When Peter says, "Received the Holy Spirit just as we have" he is obviously referring back to when the disciples spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost. So none of these phrases are referring to the reception of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of regeneration.
Wow - I thought I recalled something you said about not wanting to do hermenutical gymnastics.
There are no passages that say we receive the gift of the indwelling, regenerating Holy Spirit the moment we believe. That thought is found only in some of the old hymns of the church. Certainly belief is a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit -- it's just not the only one.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Galations 3:14
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Acts 11:16-17
16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
Question - what happened here?
Acts 8:12-13
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Acts 8:18-21
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Simon believed and was baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit. Why?
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
"having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," not "at the moment you believed you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Quote:
Galations 3:14
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
"receive the promise of the Spirit through faith," not "receive the promise of the Spirit the moment you have faith."
Quote:
Acts 11:16-17
16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
"the same gift as He gave to us also" (that is, speaking in tongues) "after believing," not "the same gift as He gave to us also at the moment of belief."
I continue to maintain that there are no Scriptures that say we receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit the moment we believe.
Quote:
Question - what happened here?
Acts 8:12-13
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Acts 8:18-21
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Simon believed and was baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit. Why?
Yes, Simon was baptized and if Acts 2:38 is true then he did receive the Holy Spirit. What he didn't receive was the gift of tongues. Obviously the laying on of the apostles hands resulted in something that people could physically see with their eyes. While tongues are not actually mentioned in the passage, I don't know of anything else that can be seen physically with the eyes that could be termed "receiving the Holy Spirit."
"having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," not "at the moment you believed you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." [/color]
"receive the promise of the Spirit through faith," not "receive the promise of the Spirit the moment you have faith."[/color]
"the same gift as He gave to us also" (that is, speaking in tongues) "after believing," not "the same gift as He gave to us also at the moment of belief."[/color]
Wow, talk about reading into a text what you want to see! Any plain reading of the text (backed up by other verses in the NT) shows you are introducing (again) unwarranted distinctions.
If what you claim all happens subsequent to belief (temporally), then the Bible would have been more explicit about it.
You will not convince me that "having believed, you were sealed" really means "having believed, you were sealed sometime later" because that's forcing your beliefs onto the text (or using a bad translation).
No, not before they believed anything (see Acts 10:2)...
If we read further into the narrative we see the following:
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
If you'll notice, the term "hath cleansed" is in the Greek Aorist tense, indicative mood. That is: Past tense, ie: already cleansed. The same Greek word (καθαρίζω) is also found here, rendered as "purify" in the KJV:
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We then continue with the narrative:
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
In light of these scriptures, how is it that you believe Cornelius, as well as his family, were uncleansed (or not purified) prior to being baptized, if that is in-fact your argument?
Actually, this is a wonderful UR narrative that explicitly teaches that no man (or any man, as here in the text) is to be considered common or unclean. All men have already been (past tense) objectively cleansed and purified, justified and reconciled by, and to God, who did so in Christ.
This undoubtedly, as scripture testifies, includes Cornelius together with his family, prior to their being water baptized.
Scripture also testifies through Paul concerning this glorious vision given to Peter by God:
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 09-07-2012 at 09:40 AM..
Yes. There is NOTHING WE do or do not do that has anything to do with our salvation. Christ already DID that part. The question "Are you saved IF . . . (ANYTHING) . . ." is always Yes. Whether or not we are fully sanctified and justified under Christ's grace DOES depend on us. We are to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Any unrepented failures in this regard will have consequences (NOT eternal punishment) . . . but WE are "saved as by fire."
Wow, talk about reading into a text what you want to see! Any plain reading of the text (backed up by other verses in the NT) shows you are introducing (again) unwarranted distinctions.
If what you claim all happens subsequent to belief (temporally), then the Bible would have been more explicit about it.
You will not convince me that "having believed, you were sealed" really means "having believed, you were sealed sometime later" because that's forcing your beliefs onto the text (or using a bad translation).
I'm reading into the text??? All I did was quote the verses and then paraphrased what I thought you believed those texts were saying. How is that reading into the text? I believe the texts just as they are written and none of them say that we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment we believe.
You may find this hard to believe, but I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I merely telling you what believe and why I believe it. It is not an attempt to convince you.
and none of them say that we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment we believe...
You're right. The work of the Holy Spirit (that is: our having been begotten of God, past tense), occurs prior to our believing.
1Jn 5:1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
I have heard it both ways. I have heard that even if you give your heart to Jesus and profess His Name as The Messiah, if you have not been Baptised you still are not Saved
I have heard that Baptism is merely a public display of Faith and is not required for Salvation, because Jesus already took care of that on The Cross
What are your views on this?
A mother tells her child, "Go to the store. Bring back bread, lettuce, and tomatoes, and I'll give you $50. Bring bread and lettuce, you get nothing.". The child comes back with bread and lettuce. The child then ask her mother for the $50. The mother says, "No. You didn't do what I told you. I told you to get breat lettuce AND tomatoes, and I'll give you $50. You didn't do everything I asked, so you don't get anything."
Matt 16:16- If Jesus out of his own mouth says, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, why is it optional to only believe when that's not what Jesus said? You must do both. Therefore it goes to reason if you want to be saved you must believe AND be baptized.
Matt 15:16-17 After Jesus was baptized, the heavens opened up and God said this is my beloved son whom I am well pleased.
If God was pleased with Jesus after he was baptized, he will be pleased with us as well.
I cannot find in the bible where it says baptism is an outward sign to Christ. Instead I do read in Act 2:38 we are baptized for the remission of sins. Which means, you still are with sin if you haven't been baptized. And they were also baptized on the SAME DAY that they believed. Acts 2:41 They did not have to wait until "baptism Sunday" which is not sound doctrine.
From my studies, I've learned in order to be saved, you must be born again, be baptized, fully submerged in water.
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Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised?
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