Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6).
There are other verses that further support this one and the clear plan that CHRIST alone is the one and only way to Salvation for all mankind (AKA: It is God's will that everyone be saved ... But, sadly, nobody will come to God by any other Way than Christ). Unfortunately, UR theology tends to ignore hundreds of scriptures regarding 'condemnation' of those who reject/refuse to believe/do not trust God in Christ for their Salvation. However, scripture repeatedly makes it clear for all who have 'ears to hear and eyes to see' that Salvation is not simply automatic for everyone! -- As you pointed-out, God's people must learn to rely on the simple, clear proof of scripture --- and reject single verse, partial verse or out-of-context scripture ... along with those who seem blind to any scripture that contradicts their own biased theology. -- Thanks for your post!
Hi jghorton Hope you see this, it is about a month after your post but I hope you are still reading this thread. Most people doen't understand UR(or at least what I and other believe.) When the Bible talks about all those who are not going the enter the kingdom of God on the "straight and narrow path" it is right and most will not enter at this time. This is for Jesus's elect who will rule with him and they will judge the rest of us and even the angels. The rest of us will go through judgment after the final ressurection and at this time we will be changed in our heart and repent. This will take place during Jesus's reign and in the end all will be changed, repent and be saved and when all of this is accomplished and all enemies including death have been vanquished and everything has been reconciled to God, Jesus will turn everything over to the Father and He will be all in all.
As you can see there is no automatic pass to heaven or blanket forgiveness. We all will go through judgment until we understand the true heart of God and we are changed and all our carnal ways are burned out of us as a fire refines precious metals .
God's will is for all men to be saved and learn righteousness. God does not fail, God' will, will be done. God is not interested in punishing us He is concerned with raising his children to be like him. Changing our hearts will be the different for everyone and some will suffer" many stripe and some few stripes." God is not a monster who will burn people for ever for the pleasure of tourchering them.
I brought this verse up with my other brothers in my family:
"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6).
My older brother responded:
"All mankind means those born before Christ who never knew Christ have/had a choice to make, and Christ gave them that choice after his crucifixion and before His resurrection. All mankind means those alive who knew Christ and those alive who didn’t know Christ – didn’t have an opportunity to choose. All mankind means all those who will be born and die without getting the choice. The rest of ALL mankind having been freed will have made their choice for or against Christ."
Five times in that short paragraph he used the words "choice" and "choose."
But looking back at 1 Timothy 2:4-6 I see the words "choose" and "choice" absent. I see God's saving of all mankind is based solely upon Christ ransoming all mankind.
Isn't it funny how people's theology gets in the way of believing the most simple of verses?
All mankind get what they get due to what Adam did. We didn't have to do anything to get what we get from his sinful act. Likewise all mankind get what they will get due to what Christ did. Fair is fair. If Adam can do it, a greater than Adam can do it too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
I dont deny that God has the power to save people in the afterlife. But look at Heb. 9:[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Even if God may give opportunity for some to repent after this earthly existence, I feel much more secure to repent in this life and receive the Holy Ghost "whom God hath given to them that obey him" Acts 5:32). That Holy Ghost makes it possible to "bring forth fruits meet for repentance" Matt. ch. 3. Since that Spirit does the work in and through us, we have nothing of which we can boast. As Jesus said in Matt. 5:[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Note that He says those good works glorify our Father in heaven, not ourselves.
Hello Robert and thanks again for giving your important thoughts.
Hebrews 9:27 is not a statement which applies to all mankind.
If you will notice the context in which that verse is found it is talking about the death of the high priest. Once the appointed high priest died, then the one in the city of refuge could go free. The likeness is to Christ who was appointed to die and then humanity was freed.
I wish all mankind could repent of their wicked acts too and believe the evangel. But God has chosen only so many to believe. The rest cannot . . . yet.
But Romans 5:12,18,19 is not about what two men did (if mankind only believes they did it!).
Even if God may give opportunity for some to repent after this earthly existence, I feel much more secure to repent in this life andreceive the Holy Ghost "whom God hath given to them that obey him" Acts 5:32). That Holy Ghost makes it possible to "bring forth fruits meet for repentance" Matt. ch. 3. Since that Spirit does the work in and through us, we have nothing of which we can boast. As Jesus said in Matt. 5:[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Note that He says those good works glorify our Father in heaven, not ourselves.
You have the essentials correct here . . . but this is an important point and it needs a bit of clarification and tweaking. The Holy Spirit (the Comforter) is a gift from God through Jesus Christ to us all. But we need to do nothing to receive it . . . just follow its guidance in our lives, period. The Trinity dogma and related doctrinal contexts govern the prevalent translations into English whenever the Holy spirit is mentioned. But here in the passage you referenced in Acts is an opportunity to see what it actually refers to using the Greek.
Acts 5:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.. You can see the obvious reason it was translated this way given the extant dogma. But lets dissect it using the Greek and its actual potential meanings.
hagios pneuma hos theos didōmi peitharcheō autos
hagios = Holy pneuma =Spirit hos = who/whom theos = God didōmi = to give to someone as an advantage peitharcheō = compound word using: peithō = to persuade and archō = to lead autos = (again) itself means nothing but simply refers to what precedes it . . . often made into a pronoun using the dogma of personhood as above (Him) a-la-Trinity doctrine.
A more accurate translation would be:
the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them as an advantage to persuade and lead them.
(Do you begin to see why the OP is simplistic in assuming the Bible "plainly declares" anything?)
MysticPhD -Heb. Ch.5 says that Christ became the author of them that obey Him.
The same kind of interpretation of Hebrews 5:9 is possible as I did for Acts . . . because as I did make clear and can continue to do . . . there is no such thing as "what the Bible plainly declares." But the scholarship apparently changes nothing . . .Moderator cut: deleted
But if you insist on an obedience rationale . . . make sure it is Christ's commands you obey . . . to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That way there will be the least confusion and misunderstanding from what you have been mistakenly indoctrinated to believe by your religious leaders.
Last edited by june 7th; 11-19-2012 at 05:47 AM..
Reason: Too likely to cause flaming.
The same kind of interpretation of Hebrews 5:9 is possible as I did for Acts . . . because as I did make clear and can continue to do . . . there is no such thing as "what the Bible plainly declares." But the scholarship apparently changes nothing . . . Moderator cut: Orphaned
But if you insist on an obedience rationale . . . make sure it is Christ's commands you obey . . . to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That way there will be the least confusion and misunderstanding from what you have been mistakenly indoctrinated to believe by your religious leaders.
Jesus said in John 14:[15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[color=red][21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
]22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?]23[/b]] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24[/b]] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
You said that the Holy Spirit is given to believers to give them an advantage and to lead them. I believe that interpretation could be better than the word "obey" in Acts 5:32, but it is necessary for a believer to have the Holy Spirit to enable him in being lead to keep the words of Jesus.
Paul said in Rom. 8:[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Last edited by june 7th; 11-19-2012 at 05:50 AM..
Reason: Red is reserved for moderator actions in threads. Any other color is okay.
This is an article I posted 4/29/12 on City-Data Forum - Bible talk - Social Group:
“The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy” (James 3:17)
OBTAINING ETERNAL LIFE
When I woke up earlier than usual this morning, I had been dreaming about people who had been discussing the topic of death. Since I am 81 years old, the thought went through my mind that this was an important topic for me to be thinking about. I thought about the millions of people who have been convinced that if they believe on Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, they are sure of having been born again and that they will go to heaven when they die. The words of Jesus appear to confirm this belief in John 10: [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I heard a highly respected Protestant preacher say recently that if we had ever believed in Jesus Christ as being the son of God, we can be assured that we have eternal life and that He has saved us from all our sins, past , present, and future.
But the words in Revelation 21:27 stuck in my mind: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” And our Savior said in Matt. 10: [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. And in John 8: [31] If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.
Jesus said in John 14: [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. And St. John said in 1John:2: [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
St. Peter said in Acts 5: [32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Paul said further in Rom. 8: [7] The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So what do we base our hope of eternal life on unless we have truly repented and have been given the Holy Spirit, having a mind to obey our Lord and Savior, and then being faithful unto death (Rev. 2: [10] Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.)
Jesus promised in Matt. 5: [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. And in Matt. 7: [7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. And in Luke 11: [13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
