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Don't stress it. I've checked several translations already and they all say what the KJV says. So maybe all of Christendom should be reading the septuagint, who knows.
Still, you can believe what you want. As for me, I'm quite convinced that God made "the waster to destroy." Satan has never been out of God's control. But Adam is quite rebellious. And Adam is in all of us, and still wants to rebel. (And he gets kicked out of heaven every time. )
The belief that God uses a wrecking ball and crane to tear down man's works of confusion, does not equate with God being evil. Aisi. He loves us, and as you said in your previous post, we see the Father when we see Jesus.
Blessings,
brian
Well surprise surprise, like I did not already know that you would reject it in favor of the scriptures Justin martyr said where being changed.
If you take the time to actually look that up Brian Justin said this in regards to the Jewish scribes changing what was written in the Septuagint.
ScarletWren I agree with so much of what you say and you do have a way with words Thank you for sharing.
Quote:
My opinion is that He intentionally created clay/raw material which would have to be hammered and fired in order to be strong. THIS LIFE is the forge and God is preparing sons, preparing us for a much higher purpose.
Our ancient ancestors' cognitive abilities were minimal and the distinctions we take for granted today about attributions did NOT exist yet. EVERYTHING was attributed to God automatically and unconsciously in speech and writing. The way they would describe what we today describe as "He was hard-hearted" . . . they would always use a phrase like "God hardened his heart." To believe that they knew or were inspired to say such a thing deliberately is just one of the myriad traps in logic possible when you "believe every word" was dictated by God. Inspiration is NOT dictation. The beliefs, superstitions, idioms, speech and communication attributes of our ancestors MUST be known and taken into account when interpreting their writings. Treating what was communicated by very primitive minds in the OT (and barely evolving minds in the NT) AS IF it was being communicated by a modern adult using English is just madness . . . NOT Faith in God.
Perhaps God could have created us knowing good and evil without having to go through all this. But He didn't. Why? I would suggest it's because this was a better plan.
What I think is that we disagree on whether God made us expecting man to be exactly what He wanted us to be or not. If He did and we aren't what He expected by our responses then we have the choice to believe He either chose not to know what we would do or wasn't able to know or is letting us figure it out without help, or perhaps with a little help. There are many different ways one can go. So each point we answer is going to make us differ from at least a few other people. Then when you start out at a place that people get to by taking many different turns, none of us makes sense to the other. If you don't think the Old Testament speaks truly of God, then you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes the scriptures even when they say something about the Creator we don't want to believe because of our picture of God. (And by stating we have choices, I believe He takes us to those points and each choice of each person leads to another path that God set up...per se He doesn't control our thoughts, and yet......that's another rabbit trail.)
So this is all circular reasoning. I see scripture talking about the Right Hand of God and also the Left Hand. I believe the Left Hand is where the evil influences spring from, such as the lying spirit God sent to Ahab, Hebrews tells us that God scourges every Son. And many other verses support God using people, other nations, etc. as His tools to inflict discipline in order to turn His people.
I am not sure I can explain it, but in my view, God viewed every scenario and chose this one. In this one, we are allowed an illusion of free will and self determination, the opportunities to use information from past choices in the next choice we make, and so on, until, at some point, we are where God has ultimatley planned for us to be.
I don't see that God could have created us and not known what we would do, how we think, etc. No matter what way He did it. A human who creates a robot knows exactly how its mechanism for inferring logic and choices works. As humans are fallible tho, the robot might malfunction and not be able to work at all, or because of some mistake by that creator, it may do something unexpected. But the God I see, the one I believe the Bible reveals, declares everything is out of Him and through Him and To Him. So I don't believe He was surprised or withheld knowledge from Himself. I don't think anything we do actually surprises Him, and I don't think even any idea could be something He didn't think of. Yes, I believe God arranged for all the horrible things that happen so that we have a full and unlimited knowledge of evil, all of which was included in the tree of knowledge and evil, since He created that too. Some might want to compare Him doing this to an evil man who tortures his children just because it pleases him or because he is insane, but I see it as a God who desired for His children to know evil as He knows it. In order for Him to be God, in my opinion, He knew the full extent of evil before He created us. But He WILL redeem us, (He has but from our vantage point we are not there yet). He allowed us to crucify His beloved son and I believe this was not only for Him to reconcile us, but for us to reconcile to Him. All our pain was laid on Him, the pain we are made to endure. This is OUR satisfaction, that we know He knows our pain and losses. And who would say that that wasn't good enough? Especially when He makes us whole, seats us in the heavenlies, presents us an eternity to enjoy true life without evil or sorrow or tears.
We, as parents, do not have to provide an experience of evil for our children because evil is already in the world and they will encounter it quite early in life. WE do however, begin very early to teach them that they must share, must refrain from doing what they want, for their own health and safety and to ensure the harmony of first the family, and then the outside world. They learn consequences of not heeding 'laws' and they learn pain, they learn they must wait sometimes before the parent tends to their needs. If you know of a child who hasn't hit a sibling either to get a toy he wants away from him or for taking his toy, or doesn't throw a tantrum because the parent doesn't give him attention or whatever the moment he wants it, there is probably something biologically wrong with that child. (And I believe that serves His purposes also and that child will be fully satisfied when God has brought Him to the place of a Son) A child MIGHT be loving and seemingly appreciate a parent who always showered him with love, attention, all its needs, but the longer that situation lasts, I would bet the bigger and nastier the tantrum that would occur the first time he didn't get what he wanted.
I regret that some think I have painted a reprehensible picture of our God. I don't agree. But obviously, in my view, God provided for many to have differing opinions to test our own ideas against.
Job, whether an actual man or a metaphor, was declared by God to be perfect and righteous, yet when He brought him to Satan's attention he was not tried or tested. When the book ended, He was tested and tried and stronger. Job 23:10 He knows the way that I take. When He tries me, I shall come forth as refined gold. God did not mean to have children with hedges built around them, IN MY OPINION, lol.
The swordsmith takes raw metal, hammers it, purges the dross out in the fire, and creates an instrument fit for the use for which it was prepared.
I believe the mistake many make, is that we think we are supposed to learn a few things and do certain things in this life and then we will have a reward in eternity. My opinion is that He intentionally created clay/raw material which would have to be hammered and fired in order to be strong. THIS LIFE is the forge and God is preparing sons, preparing us for a much higher purpose. To me, the end all isn't about bringing us home to Himself, but tho that is included, and I see a rest for us certainly, but I see that as just the BEGINNING and we will see what He has planned for the next ages. I imagine it to be quite exciting. But that's just me.
Scarlet, I love your posts. They are well-thought out. It is the premise you use about God and what exists that taints your understanding of God, IMO. You also make no distinction between what God intends or Wills and what exists because of the way life MUST be. ALL life is about GROWTH. The seed metaphor about God's kingdom is ignored . . . but it is central. Initially a seed can do nothing until it germinates and sprouts. It has limited capabilities as a sprout and the winds of life can whip it to and fro with ease. It must grow into a sapling to acquire more resistance to the winds . . . and then into an adult tree. As an adult it can withstand stronger winds and it can begin to produce fruit. Eventually it acquires the strength of a mighty oak against the winds. This is the metaphor for our spiritual growth in the parable of the mustard seed.
We begin life in a fully functioning carnal body with a Serpent (reptilian brain) focused ENTIRELY on our physical survival using pleasure/pain to learn to function . . . but with the mere seed of a Soul (Embryo Spirit). Eventually our embryo Spirit gains capabilities and we gain awareness and cognitive abilities that are immediately marshalled in support of the drives and urges of our animal body and its needs (Serpent). As our Embryo Spirit matures in capabilities it either applies them more effectively and efficiently to satisfying our selfish needs for survival, pleasure and pain . . . or it begins to learn to distinguish between Good and Evil responses to those urges (the Knowledge of Good and Evil). The rest of its spiritual growth and life here on earth is spent either focusing on the Serpent's selfish demands or on the knowledge of Good and Evil by avoiding, confronting and preventing evil. We strengthen and nourish our embryo Spirit to maturity when we exert its control in agape love over our baser urges in pursuit and defense of the Good. This is designed to lead to our eventual rebirth as Spirit upon our physical death.
God is Life and God is Love. It is the requirements of Life (growth) and the need to produce agape Love (goal) that is the reason things are the way they are . . . NOT God's Will or intentions. God's Will and intentions apply to other things and focus entirely on our spiritual growth and development to maturity and rebirth as Spirit.
Mystic,
I agree with you that the OT people did not have the blessing of God's Spirit within them to teach and guide them.
However, I don't have a problem believing that the OT scriptures were "guided" by God's hand, in spite man's limited understanding at that time. The two conditions do not cancel each other out.
However, if you consider the OT writers to be so wrong, you can just not consider it a part of the Bible.
Peace,
brian
Don't join the all or nothing crowd, brian. It does not become you. It is not an educated understanding of things recorded and interpreted by very primitive minds with limited cognitive functioning who did not have the benefit of our extremely developed and nuanced English language and cognitive concepts.
Don't join the all or nothing crowd, brian. It does not become you. It is not an educated understanding of things recorded and interpreted by very primitive minds with limited cognitive functioning who did not have the benefit of our extremely developed and nuanced English language and cognitive concepts.
So in your opinion, is the OT a reliable source of things pertaining to God, or not? Just wanting to understand where you're coming from..
From the beginning of the book until God revealed Himself is the story of how the carnal mind via the letter of the law judges God.
Satan says to God Job only loves you because you keep him safe but if you did not keep him safe Job would curse you. This is basically saying to God you don't really know Job heart. If you do prove it, take away the fence.
God was on trial.
Then we go on to read how Jobs 3 friends use the law against God, the law says so and so, thus God is doing this to you because of your sins.
Job says now just wait a minute there guys, God is not doing this because of any sin that I have done God is for some unknown reason, but yes God is doing it.
God was on trial.
Then God shows up on the scene and reveals Himself to Job and Job repents of all that he had heard and understood about God.
I cannot help but see many parallels with what took place in the book of Job with the discussion we are having on this thread.
Many from the ET camp would be liken to Jobs 3 friends and many from the Universalist camp would be like Job. Just look at some of the things each side state about God.
Job 10:8-10
8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. 9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? 10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?
Does this not sound just like what you guys keep saying about God?
Both parties however are wrong in their conclusion of God. God upbraided Job for his lack of understanding of God.
What was Jobs understanding of God again
Job 10:8-10
8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. 9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? 10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?
According to God this understanding of Him, which so many here state as the true understanding of God, is what Job repented of when He came to SEE God clearly.
So in other words stop using your carnal minds via the letter of the law to understand God because you are putting God on trial.
To understand God clearly we need only to look on Jesus.
I disagree that God is on trial, and that is because of two things:
1) Job, in his carnal thinking, accused God of doing him wrong. "Why don't you just kill me?" was his accusation. His position towards God was wrong because he believed he was right and God was wrong.
2) Satan didn't put God on trial. Satan wanted to kill Job. And, he tried to instigate God to do unrighteousness by telling God to kill Job Himself. But God, in His wisdom, told satan, "you go." And so satan went to do what he knows to do: steal, kill and destroy.
Of course, God didn't just do this to "see what happens" or "for fun." God did it because His Eternal Plan for Job was to bring Job's pride to nought. And He did, by allowing satan to do a certain work. No more, no less.
There is, as I see it now, another valuable lesson for all of us, in this situation. Namely this:
no matter who we are, or no matter what problems in life we may be facing... IF we are trusting in God to take care of it, we can REJOICE in knowing that we are HIS and that He is doing the RIGHT thing in our lives, no matter what anyone else says.
Job would have still been righteous, if he hadn't started accusing God of treating him wrongly. His idea of his self-righteous standing caused him to upbraid God when things happened to him that others would have deemed "ungodly." In fact, Job's friends were sure he was sinning. But they didn't help him at all. They only accused him.
If Job had accepted his situation in life, and rested in the assurance that God his Maker would take care of him, he wouldn't have accused God of wrongdoing, and he wouldn't have been found guilty.
Peace,
brian
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Thank you for sharing.
yet they will continue to believe otherwise
