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The Kingdom of Jesus Christ was created first. The kingdom of darkness was second, but almost instantly behind ther Light. In order for there to be a Kingdom, there must be a King. God, personally held this reign as King, until the Son appeared, and He declared His Begotten Son, and handed Him all authority.
I disagree. I don't believe that when God said "Let there be light," He was referring to Jesus Christ at all. I think He was simply referring to the creation of light and dark.
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God is done creating. Right?
I'd say wrong. I don't believe ours was the first world He ever created or that it will be the last.
If spirits are eternal then we all existed as spirits before we were born.
I believe we were.
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If all spirits (people) were created within the 6 days then having a spirit in existence cannot set Jesus apart. The fact that Jesus was flesh and blood means he was created.
I don't believe in a literal 6-day creation to begin with, but that's not my point anyway. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that God created the spirits of all His sons and daughers, including the spirit of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ) prior to our being born. Like you said, that would mean that Jesus was not unique. I believe that He was absolutely unique not because of His existance as a spirit, but because of the nature of His spirit. Unlike any of the rest of us, He had a spirit that was absolutely perfect in every regard, just like His Father's. It encompassed all truth, all knowledge and all goodness. Ours, on the other hand, were far, far from being like His.
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If all spirits came into being before the Genesis events then who created God, the Great Spirit (for lack of a better term)?
When I suggested that all spirits came into existance before the events described in Genesis, I was specifically referring to the spirits God created for us. I was not referring to God Himself. The Bible does say that He is the Father of our spirits. It just doesn't say explicitely when He created our spirits, although I believe there are two or three places where the idea that we existed prior to our birth is at least implied.
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If your spirit is eternal then it must be included in those made at the time Jesus' was. But then do you believe that we receive a spirit upon conversion? Or is there something else altogether behind John 1?
I believe the human spirit is, in fact, eternal. I believe that when you were born, your spirit entered into your body, giving it life. That's actually all a spirit really is -- it's a life force. When we are converted, we receive the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) to be our constant companion. We can feel it working in us, directing our spirit in the right direction so that we can return to our Father in Heaven. But the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as our spirit, which is something we have always had. The spirit is the life force which makes us who we are. It can reside within our physical body (as it does from birth until death) or it can reside independently of our physical body (as is the case between our death and our resurrection).
I disagree. I don't believe that when God said "Let there be light," He was referring to Jesus Christ at all. I think He was simply referring to the creation of light and dark.
"Before Abraham was, I AM"-Jesus
This is stating that He was there from the beginning. Otherwise, how else would you read this?
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I'd say wrong. I don't believe ours was the first world He ever created or that it will be the last.
As far as this world is concerned, and everything in it. Remember, it was "good". And then He rested. Implication? Done!
This is stating that He was there from the beginning. Otherwise, how else would you read this?
I don't think I'm reading it any differently than you are. I believe that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning. I'm not sure what you thought I was saying.
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As far as this world is concerned, and everything in it. Remember, it was "good". And then He rested. Implication? Done!
Yes, "Done!" But it was our universe He was through creating. There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that He stopped creating at that point. I guess I'm just thinking in a multiverse perspective while you are thinking in a universe perspective. Would it somehow make God less great if He had continued to create -- after His rest, of course?
No, I don't see it that way at all. God created "light" to light the earth....the sun, not the "son".
I'm with you on that, Ilene. Besides, the Bible tells us that God created the universe by His Son. Therefore, "the Son" would have had to exist before "the sun" was created.
I don't believe in a literal 6-day creation to begin with, but that's not my point anyway. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that God created the spirits of all His sons and daughers, including the spirit of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ) prior to our being born. Like you said, that would mean that Jesus was not unique. I believe that He was absolutely unique not because of His existance as a spirit, but because of the nature of His spirit. Unlike any of the rest of us, He had a spirit that was absolutely perfect in every regard, just like His Father's. It encompassed all truth, all knowledge and all goodness. Ours, on the other hand, were far, far from being like His.
When I suggested that all spirits came into existance before the events described in Genesis, I was specifically referring to the spirits God created for us. I was not referring to God Himself. The Bible does say that He is the Father of our spirits. It just doesn't say explicitely when He created our spirits, although I believe there are two or three places where the idea that we existed prior to our birth is at least implied.
I believe the human spirit is, in fact, eternal. I believe that when you were born, your spirit entered into your body, giving it life. That's actually all a spirit really is -- it's a life force. When we are converted, we receive the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) to be our constant companion. We can feel it working in us, directing our spirit in the right direction so that we can return to our Father in Heaven. But the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as our spirit, which is something we have always had. The spirit is the life force which makes us who we are. It can reside within our physical body (as it does from birth until death) or it can reside independently of our physical body (as is the case between our death and our resurrection).
I agree completely... I think John 1 is less complicated that everyone thinks it is. Jesus was human just like us.. it is his unique use of all that God gave him that sets him apart as 'firstborn' of all creation.
I tend to believe our spirits are eternal as well but our thoughts are not.
Kat, you might enjoy this little joke I ran into. (It's not my intention to offend anybody. I hope the Trinitarians won't take it as a slam. It's just what comes to mind whenever the topic of the Trinity comes up in a thread.)
Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?
And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.
And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?
Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, but an economic subordination within God, a division which makes the substance no longer simple."
I don't think I'm reading it any differently than you are. I believe that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning. I'm not sure what you thought I was saying.
Yes, "Done!" But it was our universe He was through creating. There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that He stopped creating at that point. I guess I'm just thinking in a multiverse perspective while you are thinking in a universe perspective. Would it somehow make God less great if He had continued to create -- after His rest, of course?
Is Jesus a created being? the answer is two part, yes and no. The bible says in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Verse 2 says "and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:27 says that God created man in his own image. This means that God made man like he himself is. Genesis 2:7 says "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Therefore, if man is made "in the image of God", then obviously God is a "living soul" It is also recorded that God has a spirit that moves, and works. (See genesis first 3 chapters) The person know to man as Jesus Christ was: 1. conceived in Mary by the Holy Ghost(Matthew1:20, fulfilling the prophecy recorded in Isaiah 7:14. This is evidence that Jesus is created by the Holy Spirit of God fertilization of Mary's egg. However, Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;whose going forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
Micah 5:2 is the prophecy that states that Jesus is God(from everlasting) so yes Jesus was created through the virgin birth, but he is from everlasting. One God created the heaven and the earth. This God,according to the scripture has a spirit that moved and did the work of creation. Micah stated this, and John recorded this "before Abraham was I am"(John 8:58) "I am the resurrection and the life"(John 11:25) "I and my father are one"(John 10:30) Now any unbeliever can say "Jesus never said that" but There are several biblical witnesses some were violently martyred, because of what they knew about God. that's like a 30 year old man saying Stephen did not see Jesus stand up in heaven before he was stoned to death. The prophecies were written long before Christ was born. It stated where he would be born before he was even born. The disciples called him the "word of God made flesh" Just as the scripture makes it clear that God, in his creation went by seed time and harvest. Everything would produce its own kind through the seed that was in it. This is why two men cannot have kids, this is why a man cannot get a cat pregnant, only a fool can argue with these facts. This is why due to the overwhelming evidence that the gospel of Jesus Christ and the rest of the scriptures are true, one can only "accept or reject". Moderator cut: personal
Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-18-2010 at 09:48 PM..
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What amkes you thnik there was ever a Julius Ceasar either/you seen him;has believing in him ever changed you life. Are all those greeat men in history pure fiction ? Has any lewft the wnderful ideas that have come from a man like Jesus or do you think that mark ;mathew and others just all were inspired to suffer for a idea . I have no dubt that jesus existed at all and have more doubt about many famous figures and certainly in the accuracy of science overall.
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