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To each his own, freedom is what it is..not even an animal would have respect for an idea that has basically stated right here in thread that a murderer has God's blessing Reason being even an animal by instinct is in order with creation and doesn't go bazurk . This OP thing is a job for the atheists to bambozzle easily with one hand tied behind the back. ( and , what could be leading, would gravitate law and order)...life is what it is, theres zero peace in this farce of a planned, itemized answer ready from a list 'sales pitch, heretical nonsense ( as a chief theme as explained in my entries)... I gotta go and don't think I can add anything else together with entries .
Last edited by macpherson; 08-18-2013 at 12:06 PM..
Luke 8: 20-21 NIV
"Someone told him (Jesus), "Your mother and brothers are standing outside waiting to see you." He replied, "My mother and brothers are those that hear God's word and put it into practice."
How is one part of the family of God without putting His word into practice? They aren't. Instead they are like a man one day who had just put the finishing touches on a new concrete driveway and went inside to enjoy a glass of tea, when to his horror, looking out the window, he saw the neighbor's small boy playing in the fresh concrete. He ran out angrily shouting at the child. After fixing the concrete he came back inside where his wife asked him, "Why did you yell so angrily at that little boy. I thought you loved little boys." To which the man replied, "I love little boys in the abstract, but I don't like them in the concrete."
Many who say they are Christians are like that. They love Jesus in the abstract, but they don't like Him in the concrete. When truth gets too specific, when it means I have to actually change my life within the power of God, it goes too far. Like Linus in the comic strip, we shout, "I love mankind!!! It's people I can't stand."
Every person who claims to be a Christian loves Christ in the abstract. But when it means I have to actually change the way I think, the way I treat my wife and kids, the way I do business, the way I spend my time and money, and even the way I treat my enemies, "Now wait a minute, you've gone from preaching to meddling. I want to be saved without the hassle!"
But you shall know them by their fruits--Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16. The word "fruit" used here is Strong's Number 2590, which means "work, act, deed" [Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
Mike, since it doesn't fit your theology you have to "explain" Jesus statement was to someone else instead of doing what men of faith really do---see every word out of the mouth of Christ as directed toward themselves. That's why the thread of truth must be traced through and be reconciled with ALL scripture.
And how does living one's faith---or not living it affect the unbeliever or non-Christian?
Another story in order to use parables that Jesus used to teach truth--
A mother was reprimanding her small son, "Johnny do you know what happens to little boys who tell lies?"
"Yes," he replied. "They travel for half fare."
Her life was a demonstration to her son about what was in her heart. He had learned from her leadership. And this is the reason churches are failing in the message they deliver today, to make any real difference in the lives of those who "accept" Christ. They teach loving Jesus in the abstract, but not in the concrete.
Matt 12:50
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same shall be my brother and sister, and mother."
In all the ages of the world, people have accepted words for deeds, FOR THEY ARE CONTENT WITH A SHOW, and rarely pause to note, in the public arena, whether promises to God (I believe in You, Lord) are followed by performance.
Although Paul wrote the following words to encourage Christians to provide for those who minister to them, in some ways it is a rhetorical question, stating that God expects to do the same from His children.
New International Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?
English Standard Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
New American Standard Bible
Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
King James Bible
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock?
International Standard Version
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk?
Well, if you believe OSAS, apparently God plants vineyards and does not expect to eat any of the grapes, and tends sheep with no expectation of milk.
Some interpret the parable of the prodigal son as referring to a believer's restoration to temporal fellowship with God. When a person first trusts Christ for salvation he is placed into a permanent position in Christ from which he can never be removed. He is made alive in Christ and raised up with Him and positionally seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father as per Ephesians 2:5-6. But the believer also has a temporal moment by moment relationship with Christ which is interrupted by sin in his life. When the believer sins he moves out of the realm of spirituality and into the realm of carnality where he is under the control of his sin nature rather than under the filling of the Spirit. A believer who remains out of fellowship for prolonged periods is in a backslidden condition, in a state of rebellion, but he is still saved. He is still a son even though he has alienated himself from God. He is an estranged son, but still a son. The believer recovers his temporal fellowship with Christ, his abiding in Christ when he acknowledges his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9. Being restored to fellowship puts the believer back in a position to resume spiritual growth.
Others interpret the parable of the prodigal son along with the other parables in Luke 15 as teaching that those who are lost (unbelievers) can come to Christ. Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who rejected Christ's message of the kingdom. They didn't like the fact that sinners were coming to Christ and believing His message. In this view, the Pharisees (the older son) who were rejecting the kingdom message and the sinners who were coming to Christ and believing the kingdom message (the younger son) could not be adequately represented in the parable of the prodigal son if the intent of the parable was to teach the believer's restoration to fellowship.
In this view the older son represents the Jews who were God's ''children'' from the standpoint of their covenant relationship with God. Nevertheless, each Jew had to personally become a believer in Christ in order to be eternally saved. The Jews had to believe Jesus' message that He was the Messiah and that He would bring in the kingdom for Israel. The younger son represented sinners who were considered to be far away from God and squandering their lives in riotous living while the older son remained with the father and refrained from such riotous living. Circumstances caused the younger son to reconsider his actions and return to the father who when he saw his younger son returning threw a banquet for him. This represents the younger son receiving a new position which he previously did not have. The older son (the Pharisees)resented this. They resented the fact that Gentiles would be a part of the kingdom. Just as the older son refused to go to the banquet, the Pharisees refused the kingdom which had been offered to Israel.
Which ever view you hold to, neither one suggests that a believer can lose his salvation.
Hi Mike555,
thanks for the explanation. I appreciate your viewpoint on this parable. I still have to charitably disagree... because I find it a hard fit - especially if you consider parallel analogies - for instance the one about being grafted in AGAIN as a believer (Romans 11).
I think the question now becomes "on whose authority do you hold/teach this interpretation"??
And please mike555, let's not say "the Holy Spirit" or "the bible"... because we all hold to these two ultimate authorities, yet we still disagree. So the Holy Spirit nor the bible can ever be wrong, it must be that one of our interpretations is wrong.
I would really like you to consider strongly my question - before answering. The answer cannot be "your personal interpretation" either, because truth is NOT a matter of private interpretation - else we are all our own pope.
So if you say "John Calvin is my authority" (since he came up with this doctrine), I can honestly respect that - but only if... ONLY IF, you take ALL of what he taught - including baptismal regeneration, the importance of Church, and the perpetual virginity of Mary etc. etc. etc.
But if you only take some of what he said, I invite you to find something OTHER than "the Holy Spirit and the bible" that affirms your position. Like I said, we all have these two authorities and they CANNOT contradict one another - and yet we still contradict.
What kind of logic is that? A person must accept some other guys idea hook line and sinker? The first obvious question is why not the other guy accept someone else's idea hook line and sinker.
Took me 5 min to check out the Calvin guy and he was into ex-communicating 1 out of 15 of his followers who I guess were trying to understand things and said the wrong thing. It looks like this guy was into tossing anyone who disagreed with him into the slammer and it wouldn't be the least bit surprising if the dungeon was beneath the wine cellar with dragons prob well fed , ready and willing for work. Apparently in one of his private collection of letters he was noted for enjoying the imagination and hope of carmelite monks rotting live in the ditch. (...?
And he spoke of the BVM finder of grace? well goes to show what this guy forgot to get is a spiritual director for himself, at least from what is said thats for sure. Anyway its illogical to exactly exactly walk in someone else's shoes in these things to try and know everything... In these things its a matter of simple common sense and an understanding in moderation in things to do with trying to 'know everything.. And obviously if any if and ONLY if is on the table its for this dude. A trouble causer. If a church wants to recognize the last supper and is inspired, therefore so what?...if a church is on target with impotant things and does not want to recognize the last supper...ok thats their deal it doesn't mean every-bodies going to the lake....anyway this idea as a theme for propagating church or whatever if anything is bad for the whole culture as the culture is today no matter what. I can't see parents teaching their children primarily this idea, and how could it be anything but a prime idea, so it becomes a social issue with the societies order before it even gets to the believers door, and can be shown I think.
Last edited by macpherson; 08-18-2013 at 11:18 PM..
What kind of logic is that? A person must accept some other guys idea hook line and sinker? The first obvious question is why not the other guy accept someone else's idea hook line and sinker.
Took me 5 min to check out the Calvin guy and he was into ex-communicating 1 out of 15 of his followers who I guess were trying to understand things and said the wrong thing. It looks like this guy was into tossing anyone who disagreed with him into the slammer and it wouldn't be the least bit surprising if the dungeon was beneath the wine cellar with dragons prob well fed , ready and willing for work. Apparently in one of his private collection of letters he was noted for enjoying the imagination and hope of carmelite monks rotting live in the ditch. (...?
And he spoke of the BVM finder of grace? well goes to show what this guy forgot to get is a spiritual director for himself, at least from what is said thats for sure. Anyway its illogical to exactly exactly walk in someone else's shoes in these things to try and know everything... In these things its a matter of simple common sense and an understanding in moderation in things to do with trying to 'know everything.. And obviously if any if and ONLY if is on the table its for this dude. A trouble causer. If a church wants to recognize the last supper and is inspired, therefore so what?...if a church is on target with impotant things and does not want to recognize the last supper...ok thats their deal it doesn't mean every-bodies going to the lake....anyway this idea as a theme for propagating church or whatever if anything is bad for the whole culture as the culture is today no matter what. I can't see parents teaching their children primarily this idea, and how could it be anything but a prime idea, so it becomes a social issue with the societies order before it even gets to the believers door, and can be shown I think.
Hi Macpherson,
Thanks for weighing in. You have hit the nail EXACTLY on the head. Because we cannot take EVERYTHING from EVERYONE, this has caused some 30,000+ denominations in Christianity in USA alone... Plus everyone coming up with his own doctrine - and picking and choosing which is important, and which is not, there's no objective reality anymore. Christianity - according to your model, is now a mishmash of relativism, because no one can say "Thus sayeth God". So we're left to come up with our own conclusions, on our own authority, using our own biblical interpretation and basically becoming our own denomination.
I wonder if Jesus in John 17 meant that when He prayed "...so that they may all be one as You, Father are in Me, and I in You,"
Surely there's got to be a better way than just each person taking their own bible and coming up with their own version of the truth? I don't think Jesus just dropped the bible from the sky and said to Christians "read this, come up with your own interpretations and follow Me with whatever you think is the truth"...
Surely Jesus established a better way to know Him??
You do not retain eternal life only for as long as you believe. Once you have been saved by grace through faith you have been born again and have eternal life forever. The merit is not in the faith, but in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. It is God who keeps you secure. Not your faith.
If a believer departs from the faith and no longer believes, the Lord remains faithful.
2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
1 Thess. 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
And eternal life is a free gift which God will not revoke.
Romans 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Once you have initially placed your faith in Christ you are saved forever even if you lose your faith. Once you have been born again you cannot become unborn, and you will never experience the second death in the lake of fire.
Amen! Once we become a born-again child of God we will forever be His child. We may fall out of fellowship with God but we are still His child.
For many years I based my salvation on saying a prayer, going to church every time the doors were opened, paying my tithes, supporting missions, witnessing, living a clean life, trying to do everything that was good, etc.. I did all of those "works" for the Lord but I had no assurance that I was saved. My life was miserable because although I had "called on the name of the Lord" many times asking Him to forgive me of my sins and save me I still had no assurance of salvation. The problem was that I did not understand God's way of salvation.
Out of desperation I asked God to show me whatever it was that I needed to have the peace of knowing for sure that my sins were forgiven and also to show me how to believe in Jesus. Next, I started reading the Gospel of John and by the time I read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit showed me exactly what I needed to believe the Gospel. I like to say the that Holy Spirit "turned on the light" for me and "I got it." God showed me that I must stop all the things I was doing to get saved and just trust what Jesus had already done for me when He died on the cross.
I became a genuine Christian the moment the Holy Spirit convinced me that the only way to have my sins forgiven was that I must trust in the death of Jesus on the cross where He shed His blood to pay my sin debt to God "in full." The moment I saw that Jesus took my sin upon Himself as He died on the cross to pay my penalty for me my life changed forever. Jesus changed me into a different person than what I was before I trusted in Him. My salvation is based on faith in Christ & not in anything I have done or could do. I do not base my salvation on any good works that I might do. I have a settled peace of an absolute assurance of salvation based on Jesus's death on the cross and His shed blood there. And, yes He did change me into a different person. Now I serve the Lord out of an attitude of gratefulness for what He did for me and not to help Him save me or the keep myself saved
I'm sure others here will disagree with me but that's what God did for me.
You do not retain eternal life only for as long as you believe. Once you have been saved by grace through faith you have been born again and have eternal life forever. The merit is not in the faith, but in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. It is God who keeps you secure. Not your faith.
If a believer departs from the faith and no longer believes, the Lord remains faithful.
2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
1 Thess. 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
And eternal life is a free gift which God will not revoke.
Romans 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Once you have initially placed your faith in Christ you are saved forever even if you lose your faith. Once you have been born again you cannot become unborn, and you will never experience the second death in the lake of fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldonjohn
Amen! Once we become a born-again child of God we will forever be His child. We may fall out of fellowship with God but we are still His child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldonjohn
For many years I based my salvation on saying a prayer, going to church every time the doors were opened, paying my tithes, supporting missions, witnessing, living a clean life, trying to do everything that was good, etc.. I did all of those "works" for the Lord but I had no assurance that I was saved. My life was miserable because although I had "called on the name of the Lord" many times asking Him to forgive me of my sins and save me I still had no assurance of salvation. The problem was that I did not understand God's way of salvation.
Out of desperation I asked God to show me whatever it was that I needed to have the peace of knowing for sure that my sins were forgiven and also to show me how to believe in Jesus. Next, I started reading the Gospel of John and by the time I read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit showed me exactly what I needed to believe the Gospel. I like to say the that Holy Spirit "turned on the light" for me and "I got it." God showed me that I must stop all the things I was doing to get saved and just trust what Jesus had already done for me when He died on the cross.
I became a genuine Christian the moment the Holy Spirit convinced me that the only way to have my sins forgiven was that I must trust in the death of Jesus on the cross where He shed His blood to pay my sin debt to God "in full." The moment I saw that Jesus took my sin upon Himself as He died on the cross to pay my penalty for me my life changed forever. Jesus changed me into a different person than what I was before I trusted in Him. My salvation is based on faith in Christ & not in anything I have done or could do. I do not base my salvation on any good works that I might do. I have a settled peace of an absolute assurance of salvation based on Jesus's death on the cross and His shed blood there. And, yes He did change me into a different person. Now I serve the Lord out of an attitude of gratefulness for what He did for me and not to help Him save me or the keep myself saved
I'm sure others here will disagree with me but that's what God did for me.
Hi ldonjohn. It's a big load off of your mind, and a big burden off of your shoulders isn't it to realize that your salvation is 100% the work of Jesus Christ and not dependent on doing good works in order to earn your salvation, and to know that you can never lose your salvation. While works are a part of the Christian life, they have no relevance to being delivered from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. Eternal life is ours the moment we simply receive Christ as Savior.
A very strong affirmation of our eternal security is found in Romans 6:8.
Romans 6:8 Now if ('if' is in the Greek first class condition which means it is assumed to be true; if and it's true) we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
The moment any church-age believer receives Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit places us into union with Christ by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. Therefore, having died with Christ, we WILL live with Christ. We in fact have eternal life in the present.
This guarantee of our eternal security is repeated in 2 Tim. 2:11.
2 Tim. 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2 Tim. 2:12- 13 then continue with,
2 Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Having just been told in verse 11 that if (since) we have died with Christ we will live with Him, we are then told in verse 12 that if we endure in our Christian life we will have rulership responsibilities in the kingdom. And if we deny Christ we will be denied rulership responsibilities and privileges.
And then in verse 13,
2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Having been told in verse 11 that we will live with Christ, and then told in verse 12 that faithfulness in our Christian life will result in rulership responsibilities, we are now told in verse 13 that even if we are faithless, Christ remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. When we receive Christ as Savior we are placed in union with Him and become a part of the body of Christ with reference to the church. Jesus cannot deny even unprofitable parts of His body - the church. Now rewards will be denied the unfaithful believer, but not eternal salvation.
Sadly however, many simply will not believe this. The false gospel of salvation by works was addressed by Paul in the Book of Galatians, because the Judaizers were claiming that you had to be circumcised (Gal. 1:6-12; 5:1-12; compared with Acts 15:1-11)
And today we still have the salvation by works crowd. If only they would open their eyes and see their error and accept the fact that the Bible clearly teaches salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
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Who is in the family of God
