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pastorALly, Clear can speak for himself, but repentance is continuous--it is not static.
Thanks. I haven't weighed in on this and don't plan to. This is obviously a hot button topic and I'm certain no one is going to change their view, we're too set in our ways. I'm not defending, denying or debating any of this, I just wanted clarification on his particular view because I wasn't certain from his comments. Your views and Mike's views are certainly polar opposites which piques my interest.
I've heard people say, "If I just make it to heaven, I'll be secure." Where was Satan when he fell? Wasn't he in heaven?
You can think a one time decision secures a spot for you in heaven, but the Bible teaches that it's BEING IN CHRIST that makes you secure.
The silliness that goes around in this nation that you can receive Jesus as Savior but not as Lord, is the broad way that leads to destruction. That's absurd. If you really believe in Christ it is in the fulness of His person. It is His way of life that you embrace.
The way is narrow. That's why few find it. It demands too much of them, when it is just so much easier to leave it to God and continue living any way we so desire.
I John 2:24-25
Quote:
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does (please note IF IT DOES), you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
Please note the IFstatement in the verse above. No, John is not writing to unsaved people, he is writing to those who consider themselves Christian. In verse one he calls them "My dear children," and in verse seven he restates by saying, "Dear friends." This whole letter is to Christians challenging them to test themselves to see if they are really born again. If all that was needed was a one-time confession it would have been considerably shorter than it is.
I know this is grating on hearts that want an easy way to claim they are in God's favor. It's not a popular view. The modern, popular view is that a Christian can be carnal--but nowhere in the Bible does it speak of a carnal Christian. Jesus Christ is an all or nothing proposition. Living for Him on Sunday and living anyway you want the rest of the week is not being one of His followers.
How do you KNOW, really KNOW you are saved. Verse 29 of I John 2 states this:
Quote:
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
--again speaking to those who claim to be Christians.
PastorALy asked in post # 651 “ Are you saying a person's salvation is based upon their repentance? Or, are you saying repentance is necessary for salvation in that our view of sin must change?“
Hi PastorALy : I am not saying that ultimate post resurrection – post judgment “salvation” in a social heaven is based upon the principle of repentance alone. In authentic historical Christianity, there were other principles involved rather than simple faith that Jesus is the Christ, or a simple request for that Christ to save us. For example, we cannot remain in willful disobedience to Jesus and expect him to reward us. There is, for example, a process of sanctification which is disrupted by willful disobedience. As another example, there is the phenomenon of the Holy Spirit and its’ effects which one cannot assume to experience to the same degree and effect if one is disobedient to God.
There are multiple principles involved in preparing for and successfully entering into and living in harmony and joy with others in a social heaven than simply asking to placed there without a willingness and capacity of living the moral principles which must exist there in order for heaven to be a place of eternal joy and harmony.
A Catholic friend of mine, pointed out : “There are churches that teach that if you sincerely ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart." This point was poignant and powerful to me because this sort of “easy believism” IS the type of Christianity that I was first taught as a youth.
My point is that the differing versions and theories of “Easy Believism” ( such as the interpretation that a simple prayer can save us, without reference to other principles) is inconsistent with the early historical Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.
Despite it’s “bad press”, the principle of repentance was an integral part of Gods plan for mankind from the very beginning in early Judeo-Christian religion. Judao-christian creation council texts relate that it was the principle of repentance and redemption that were key in settling doubts about God’s plan for mans moral education. Jewish Haggadah reminds us the importance of repentance to Gods plan.
“When God resolved upon the creation of the world, he took counsel” and the initial issue was “…the value of an earthly world on account of the sinfulness of men, who would be sure to disregard her precepts.” That is, man would sin and oppress and engage in many forms of various evils. “… But God dispelled her doubts. He told her that repentance had been created long before, and sinners would have the opportunity of mending their ways” (The Haggadah - first things created ch 1)
Repentance was always seen as part of the process by which mankind would learn to live moral laws which characterize living in a social heaven in harmony and peace with others. The early Hellenistis Christian Synagogal Prayers reflect this principle : “... and you bring forward into light the rational animal, the man. 10 With laws, you have taught (him); with just ordinances, you have cleansed (him)…. you have caused the Paraclete to live in us… “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - 7 - c.f. AposCon 7.38.1-8)
Early synagogal prayers honor the Father for implanting a moral guide within man who is to repent of errors in the process of learning to obey this conscience and in learning higher moral laws. Their early prayers Honor God “who gave an implanted and written law to him, so that he might live lawfully as a rational being, 4 and when he had sinned, gave him your goodness, as a pledge to lead him to repentance; 5 look upon those who have bent the neck of their soul and body to you, because 6 He does not desire the death of the sinner, but his repentance, so that he might turn back from his way of evil, and live! “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - A Prayer of entreaty for God’s Mercy upon the Penitent (AposCon 8.9.8f) #11:1-6)
Moral law, whether the “implanted” law of conscience or written/oral laws God provides to mankind were taught in all generations as 1st Clement says : “ 5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn that from generation to generation the Master has given an opportunity for repentance to those who desire to turn to him. …” (I Clement 7:5-7)
These moral laws in all of their manifestations are given to man for mans’ benefit, as a moral guide, “… indeed, the Master of the universe himself spoke about repentance with an oath: “For as I live says the Lord, I do not desire the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance.” (1st Clement 8:1-2)
Repentance makes perfect sense in its role to prepare mankind to live higher social laws which members of a social heaven must learn to live if they are to live in an eternal peace and joy one with another. If inhabitants of heaven have not learned to master moral rules and are allowed to practice evil then heaven cannot BE joyous and unified eternal existence. Repentance is a part of the process by which morally imperfect beings improve.
Thus Manasseh correctly describes God as : “…the God of those who repent.” (Prayer of Manasseh. The literal translation of this verse in charlesworth is : “…for you are the God of the repenters ..” In this early theology, It is those who repent who are to become his people and he is to be their God.
2nd Clement reminds us that God doesn’t merely want our repentance, but it is our obligation to him : “… While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance.” (2nd Clement 9:7-8)
And the early Christians were reminded that God requires repentance because it is one principle that is required to save us.
2 REPENTANCE, IS A PRINCIPLE INHERENT TO MORAL PROGRESSION
Repentance was central to Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind so as to allow them to become more rational, useful and as a preparation to live in a social heaven in unity and joy. Phillip uses domestication as an example of What God is doing for mans benefit and why he does it.
“There are domestic animals like the bull and the ass and others of this kind. Others are wild and live apart in the deserts. Man ploughs the field by means of the domestic animals, and from this he feeds both himself and the animals, whether tame or wild. Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.” (The gospel of Phillip) It is the intelligent, civil and morally “domesticated” mankind which are best able to live in heaven and be of benefit to others.
Repentance plays a central role in this moral intelligence and civilizing of the morally ignorant and morally uncivilized spirits of mankind. Though spirits are initially, morally ignorant, they are to repent and learn moral laws though they will make mistakes along the way.
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent…(Acts 17:30)
The ancient justification for God “winking” at, or allowing some moral error is because it was part of the moral education of individuals who would, ultimately , become both righteous, and morally educated. Diognetus explains this principle thusly :
“… he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness … (The Epistle to Diognetus 8:9-11)
This plan for man to “plant wisdom in their hearts” and learn to live by it qualifies them to be given greater power and glory in the eternal (‘undying’) worlds. Mankind who reject the opportunity to live by moral laws ultimately regret not having repented and learned to live higher moral laws. The prophet Baruch describes this early tradition :
“… as for the glory of those who proved to be righteous on account of my law, those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their hearts – their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty so that they may acquire and receive the undying world which is promised to them. Therefore, especially they who will then come will be sad, because they despised my Law and stopped their ears lest they hear wisdom and receive intelligence. (The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 51:2-6)
Jewish Zohar likens this moral education of the spirits of mankind to a “boarding school” that spirits are sent to in order to gain the needed education and then welcomed home, having been “initiated into the ways of the palace”.
: “….the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps. It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day.… ’ ([Prov. 10:25].” THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
3 REPENTANCE WAS NOT MERELY REGRET OR EMBARRASSMENT
The ancients understood that simply having a “worldly sorrow” for moral mistakes was different than a “godly sorrow” associated with authentic repentance.
“…Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Cor 7:9-10)
In ancient tradition, the repentant Christian was to : “Wash and be clean; remove the wickedness from your souls out of my sight. Put an end to your wickedness; learn to do good; seek out justice; deliver the one who is wronged; give judgment on behalf of the orphan, and grant justice to the widow.” I Clement 8:4;
Clement explains that they were to be restored “… to the honorable and pure conduct which characterizes our love for the brotherhood. 2 For this is an open gate of righteousness leading to life,… This is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter by it.” (Ps118) 4 Although many gates are opened, this righteous gate is the Christian gate; blessed are all those who have entered by it and direct their path in holiness and righteousness, doing everything without confusion. (I Clement 48:1-4)
Though they would make moral mistakes, still “The lord, however, forgives all who repent, if in repenting they return to the unity of God…” Ignatius to the Philadelphians 8:1.
This is different than the Christian that simply feels badly that he sins, but then intentionally and willingly repeated his same sins. “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” Hermas 31:1-67;
AUTHENTIC VS COUNTERFEIT REPENTANCE
In ancient Judao-christian Tradition, it was authentic repentance which opened the door to the full effect of Gods mercy for sins, the counterfeit “repentance” did not offer mercy in this same way . “… If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…. “ (1 John 1:6-7)
And, the Lord was not to be fooled by counterfeit displays of either repentance OR fake piety : “… ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” Matthew 23:25-28
“Jesus said, “I took my place in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found all of them intoxicated; I found none of them thirsty. And my soul became afflicted for the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent. “ (The Gospel of Thomas vs 28)
“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me….” (Matthew 15:7-9 Just as Hypocritical and counterfeit piety were done ineffectually and “in vain”, counterfeit repentance was just as ineffectual.
This early tradition was spelled out in hermas’ vision of the willow :
“To those,” he said, “whose hearts he saw were about to become pure, and who were about to serve him with all their heart, he gave repentance; but to those whose deceit and wickedness he saw, who were about to repent hypocritically, he did not give repentance…[forgiveness]” (Hermas 72:2)
God is trying to teach individuals to “Rend your hearts and not your garments” (Joel 2:13)
The bad effects of counterfeit and false repentance did not simply damage the unrepentant Christian, but his immoral behavior affected those who were looking critically at christianity for moral value and rejected it because of the actions of the unrepentant and hypocritical Christians.
“For the Lord says, “My name is continually blasphemed among all the nations…. Why is it blasphemed? Because you do not do what I desire. For when the pagans hear from our mouths the oracles of God, they marvel at their beauty and greatness. But when they discover that our actions are not worthy of the words we speak, they turn from wonder to blasphemy, saying that it is a myth and a delusion.” 2nd Clement 13:2-3
This same ill-effect is true as agnostics look closely at Christian arguments and meanness and pettiness in forum arguments nowadays.
REPENTANCE REPRESENTS A REAL AND ON-GOING EFFORT TO CHANGE, NOT A TEMPORARY ADJUSTMENT
Abrahamist gave us an example of a christian theory where one may claim eternal salvation by saying a single and simple prayer. Nowadays, just as anciently, there were Christians who claimed eternal salvation simply by a single and simple belief in Jesus, but do not attempt authentic repentance. Speaking of such theories of belief while continuing in idolic behaviors, Barnabas said :
“...Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely ...”(The Epistle of Barnabas 4:6)
“For there are some who maliciously and deceitfully are accustomed to carrying about the Name while doing other things unworthy of God. You must avoid them…” (Ignatius to the Ephesians 7:1)
To the Christian convert, the early tradition was that they have an opportunity for authentic repentance, “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” (Hermas 31:1-67)
“For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death? 123 Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it, 124 because we have lived in unseemly places? 125 Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars but our faces shall be blacker than darkness? 126 For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death.” 127 (The Lord) answered and said, “This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage, 128 that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said.” (Fourth Book of Ezra 7:120, 123 and 125-131)
The ancients understood that they would make, and even sometimes repeat moral mistakes. The point seemed to be the constant effort toward improvement : “The righteous stumbles and proves the Lord right; he falls and watches for what God will do about him…. sin after sin does not visit the house of the righteous. The righteous constantly searches his house, to remove his unintentional sins.” V2 p655 Psalms of Solomon #3:5-7;
4) REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS; MERCY AND JUSTICE ARE NECESSARILY RELATED – ALL ARE NECESSARY
“….For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,…“ Heb 10:26
In ancient tradition, the Lord God, was a Just Lord.
The difficulty with justice as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for moral ability. If one sinned, they were banished from the realm of the sinless. It was the principle of mercy in ancient tradition that tempered the effects of justice.
“As it was, when God dismissed them from Paradise, He did not allow the divine quality of justice to prevail entirely. He associated mercy with it.” P 37 The Haggadah (The Punishment);
However, the difficulty of mercy as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for justice for sin. Repentance was the mitigating factor. A degree of mercy was to be offered to the repentant as they learned moral laws. Without repentance, there was insufficient mercy for complete forgiveness.
The implication for ancient tradition was that, without repentance, mercy could not be justly applied. This is the context underlying the Prophet Ezras’ discussion with God regarding unrepentant Sodom and Gomorrah :
“But have mercy upon the sinners for we know that you are merciful.” And God said, “I have no way to be merciful to them.” And Ezra said, “(Be merciful) because they cannot sustain your anger. And God said, “(I am wrathful) because such (are the deserts) of such (men) as these.” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 1:15-18)
In this early theological model; Without repentance, applying a complete, pardoning mercy is unjust (and God MUST remain a God of Justice). Ezra concedes this point to God, saying : “Lord you bring upon us what we deserve. And God said, “Your sins exceed my kindness.” And the prophet said, …“ Pity, Lord, the sinners, pity your own molding, have mercy upon your works.” The God remembered his works and said to the Prophet, “How can I have mercy upon them?” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 2:20-21). It is Sodoms lack of repentance that prevents Ezra from finding any further justification for requesting and applying mercy.
This connection between repentance and mercy has existed throughout all ages of Judao-Christian tradition. “Indeed, all the saints who have sinned up to this day will be forgiven, IF they repent with all their heart …” Hermas 6:4 (bold is mine)
At some point, all of us must come to the same Understanding of the value of repentance that Gad (brother of Joseph) came to when he taught his sons :
I understood this at last, after I had repented concerning Joseph, for according to God’s truth, repentance destroys disobedience, puts darkness to flight, illumines the vision, furnishes knowledge for the soul, and guides the deliberative powers to salvation. 8 For what it has not learned from human agency, it understands through repentance.“ Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Gad 5:1-8
These early Judao-Christian traditions regarding the relationship between Good and Evil, Justice and Mercy and the Moral education of our spirits is summed up in Jewish 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 (from Qumran “Charter”). Regarding Good and Evil, they taught
“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these spirits. All the hosts of humanity, generation by generation, are heirs to these spiritual divisions, walking according to their ways; the outworking of every deed inheres in these divisions according to each persons’s spiritual heritage, whether great or small, for every age of eternity. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions.“
The ancient tradition were clear as to the purpose of both Good and Evil in Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind. Importantly, we were to be judged and rewards and punishments were associated by virtue of the moral laws we chose to learn to live.
“…Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a person’s endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages of eternity. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil, deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him, until the day of the appointed visitation.” (“CHARTER” 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26)
It was those who had learned to repent and learn to live higher and higher moral laws that were able to say : “I give thanks to You, O Lord, for You have redeemed my soul from the pit. From Sheol and Abbadon You have raised me up to an eternal height, so that I might walk about on a limitless plain, and know that there is hope for him whom you created from the dust for the eternal council. The perverse spirit You have cleansed from great transgression, that he might take his stand with the host of the holy ones, and enter together with the congregation of the sons of heaven. And for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge...” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - (1QH + 4Q432 Frag. 3 Col. 11:19-23)
I hope it makes sense Why I believe that the early Christian tradition would have believed that “without on-going, authentic repentance”, no single simple prayer will guarantee the reward of eternal life in a social heaven of powerful exalted beings who have repented for sin and have learned to live higher moral laws which enable them to live together in unity and joy for eternity.” This new theory of “Easy Believism” is not merely inconsistent with the earliest Judeo-Christians Texts describing Early Christianity, but it cannot save anyone.
The early Judeo-Christians described, in their texts, a religion that was different than the modern theory of Easy Believism. If they are correct in their descriptions, then, Mike555 (and the rest of us) cannot be save without repentance (which seems to be the essence of the social and moral improvement Wardendresden is describing).
I’m not sure when or where the Christian interpretive theory of “easy believism” originated since it doesn't appear in any of the early Judeo-Christian texts I'm aware of. Perhaps it originated in the protestant reformation as an over-reaction to the Catholic system of penitence. However I have been fascinated in its sporatic popularity and its effects.
I agree that this new religious theory of “easy believism” dilutes and undermines motives for individual Christians to improve their lives and thus is not nearly so powerful as authentic Christianity in terms of changing the moral lives of Christians and contributing to their development of loving characteristics.
I also agree very strongly that you are correct in your characterization regarding the "systemization of religious facts” into a system of beliefs (i.e. “religion”) that Mike555 offers, is not so powerful or productive in sanctifying and changing individuals and their characters into lovers of God and fellow men as much as authentic experiential religion where one has a relationship with Christ that is augmented by the honest desire to emulate and become like the savior that one honors and loves. The spirit of God itself always has had a greater impact on the hearts of mankind than mere "intellectualizing" of religious principles, even the authentic principles.
Easy believism, as a theory, has insufficient power to save anyone.
For example, regardless of the manner in which Mike555 creates his personal system of belief, still he cannot access the merits of Jesus Christ without repenting of his sins and being obedient to Jesus’s commandments.
That is, neither Mike555 (nor the rest of us) can expect that Jesus will save us if we willingly choose to do evil; to deceive; to willingly harm and hurt others, regardless of having once believed. There is no way around this basic fact that we cannot expect Jesus’ to save us if we are disobedient to him and will not attempt do all the things he asks of us (rather than picking a small number of discrete “pet” sayings that we will be obedient to).
Thus, even Mike555 (and the rest of us...) still, at some point, must begin to repent of his sins to access the atonement. Mike555 still cannot expect Jesus will save him if he willingly chooses evil (regardless of his belief in Jesus as a savior). Mike555 still cannot disobey Jesus and accurately expect he will save him. This new religion of “easy believism” still has no way around the principle of repentance if it is to try to enter into and remain with authentic original Christian teachings.
Clear
νετωσεειω
You are mistaken Clear Lens.
Salvation by grace through faith and not by works is not my personal theory. It is a Biblically taught reality. Paul taught it, and Jesus taught it. I have supplied scripture which backs it up.
Since eternal life is stated to be a free gift, you cannot earn it by anything that you do. And you cannot lose it or throw it away by anything that you do. I have also showed the Scripture which proves that.
The only issue in receiving eternal life is accepting as true the proposition that Jesus died for your sins and therefore simply trusting in His finished work. Once he has been eternally saved the believer may or may not grow up spiritually. But whether he does or not he still has eternal life.
I'm going to start pasting from previous posts. This is from post 469.
A very strong affirmation of the believer's eternal security is found in Romans 6:8.
Romans 6:8 Now if ('if' is in the Greek first class condition which means it is assumed to be true; if and it's true) we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
The moment any church-age believer receives Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit places us into union with Christ by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. Therefore, having died with Christ, we WILL live with Christ. We in fact have eternal life in the present.
This guarantee of our eternal security is repeated in 2 Tim. 2:11.
2 Tim. 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2 Tim. 2:12- 13 then continue with,
2 Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Having just been told in verse 11 that if (since) we have died with Christ we will live with Him, we are then told in verse 12 that if we endure in our Christian life we will have rulership responsibilities in the kingdom. And if we deny Christ we will be denied rulership responsibilities and privileges.
And then in verse 13,
2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Having been told in verse 11 that we will live with Christ, and then told in verse 12 that faithfulness in our Christian life will result in rulership responsibilities, we are now told in verse 13 that even if we are faithless, Christ remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. When we receive Christ as Savior we are placed in union with Him and become a part of the body of Christ with reference to the church. Jesus cannot deny even unprofitable parts of His body - the church. Now rewards will be denied the unfaithful believer, but not eternal salvation.
Sadly however, many simply will not believe this. The false gospel of salvation by works was addressed by Paul in the Book of Galatians, because the Judaizers were claiming that you had to be circumcised (Gal. 1:6-12; 5:1-12; compared with Acts 15:1-11)
And today we still have the salvation by works crowd.
Understand this people. This is a strong affirmation given by the apostle Paul that since we have died with Christ, we WILL LIVE WITH CHRIST. You cannot lose or walk away from your eternal salvation. It is impossible. Your eternal salvation depends on the character and promises of God. Not on you.
And you people either do not read these posts, or you simply refuse to even attempt to be objective about the issue.
Eternal life belongs to a person the moment he accepts as true the proposition that Jesus died for His sins and rose again with the result that he simply trusts in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. If you have received Christ as Savior then you can be confident that you have eternal life which can never be taken away from you.
Salvation or deliverance includes;
1.) The fact that you are eternally saved from the penalty of sin which is separation from God, ultimately in the lake of fire, the moment you simply trust in Jesus Christ. The moment you receive Christ as Savior you are imputed with the righteousness of God and declared justified (Romans 3:22; 5:1), you are positionally sanctified (Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 6:11), you are identified with Christ in His death and therefore will live with Christ as both Romans 6:8 and 2 Tim. 2:11 state. You are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto or for the day of redemption which is another guarantee of your eternal security (Ephesians 4:30). These and other things result from simply having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
2.) You are saved or delivered from the power of sin in your life through the process of Experiential sanctification (1 Thess. 4:1-8; 1 Pet. 1:14-16). This is the ongoing process of being sanctified through spiritual growth and requires commitment on your part. This is different from your positional sanctification by which you are positionally and permanently placed into union with Jesus Christ.
The reason why so many people think you can lose your salvation and that you must work for your salvation is because they don't understand the difference between the above two categories of 'salvation' or deliverance. The first refers to the believer's eternal salvation which belongs to all who have simply believed on Christ, and the second refers to the believer's deliverance from the power of sin during his time on this earth after having believed on Christ. Being delivered from the power of sin does not mean that you won't sin, because you surely will sin. But IF you are growing spiritually you will sin less. Most believer's however do not grow up spiritually and do not become experientially sanctified. However, they still have eternal life.
3.) You are saved or delivered from the presence of sin at the point of physical death, and when in the future you receive your resurrection body you will be ultimately sanctified (Rom. 8:23-29; 1 Cor. 15:35-54; Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2).
Commitment is not a requirement for eternal life. It is if you are to grow up spiritually, but not to receive the free gift of eternal life. And eternal life is free.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Both Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit say that eternal life is a free gift. And if you can understand that a free gift does not require commitment on your part in order to receive the free gift then you can understand that eternal life does not require commitment on your part. While growing up spiritually requires commitment on your part, receiving eternal life does not.
Eternal life is offered by God only as a free gift by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. You cannot earn it or deserve it based on works and commitment on your part.
PastorALy asked in post # 651 “ [i][color=red]Are you saying a person's salvation is based upon their repentance? Or, are you saying repentance is necessary for salvation in that our view of sin must change.
Hi PastorALy : I am not saying that ultimate post resurrection – post judgment “salvation” in a social heaven is based upon the principle of repentance alone. In authentic historical Christianity, there were other principles involved rather than simple faith that Jesus is the Christ, or a simple request for that Christ to save us. For example, we cannot remain in willful disobedience to Jesus and expect him to reward us. There is, for example, a process of sanctification which is disrupted by willful disobedience. As another example, there is the phenomenon of the Holy Spirit and its’ effects which one cannot assume to experience to the same degree and effect if one is disobedient to God.
There are multiple principles involved in preparing for and successfully entering into and living in harmony and joy with others in a social heaven than simply asking to placed there without a willingness and capacity of living the moral principles which must exist there in order for heaven to be a place of eternal joy and harmony.
A Catholic friend of mine, pointed out : “There are churches that teach that if you sincerely ask Jesus into your heart, that is enough. And their idea of that is saying a short prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart." This point was poignant and powerful to me because this sort of “easy believism” IS the type of Christianity that I was first taught as a youth.
My point is that the differing versions and theories of “Easy Believism” ( such as the interpretation that a simple prayer can save us, without reference to other principles) is inconsistent with the early historical Christian interpretation of what is necessary for salvation.
Despite it’s “bad press”, the principle of repentance was an integral part of Gods plan for mankind from the very beginning in early Judeo-Christian religion. Judao-christian creation council texts relate that it was the principle of repentance and redemption that were key in settling doubts about God’s plan for mans moral education. Jewish Haggadah reminds us the importance of repentance to Gods plan.
“When God resolved upon the creation of the world, he took counsel” and the initial issue was “…the value of an earthly world on account of the sinfulness of men, who would be sure to disregard her precepts.” That is, man would sin and oppress and engage in many forms of various evils. “… But God dispelled her doubts. He told her that repentance had been created long before, and sinners would have the opportunity of mending their ways” (The Haggadah - first things created ch 1)
Repentance was always seen as part of the process by which mankind would learn to live moral laws which characterize living in a social heaven in harmony and peace with others. The early Hellenistis Christian Synagogal Prayers reflect this principle : “... and you bring forward into light the rational animal, the man. 10 With laws, you have taught (him); with just ordinances, you have cleansed (him)…. you have caused the Paraclete to live in us… “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - 7 - c.f. AposCon 7.38.1-8)
Early synagogal prayers honor the Father for implanting a moral guide within man who is to repent of errors in the process of learning to obey this conscience and in learning higher moral laws. Their early prayers Honor God “who gave an implanted and written law to him, so that he might live lawfully as a rational being, 4 and when he had sinned, gave him your goodness, as a pledge to lead him to repentance; 5 look upon those who have bent the neck of their soul and body to you, because 6 He does not desire the death of the sinner, but his repentance, so that he might turn back from his way of evil, and live! “ (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - A Prayer of entreaty for God’s Mercy upon the Penitent (AposCon 8.9.8f) #11:1-6)
Moral law, whether the “implanted” law of conscience or written/oral laws God provides to mankind were taught in all generations as 1st Clement says : “ 5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn that from generation to generation the Master has given an opportunity for repentance to those who desire to turn to him. …” (I Clement 7:5-7)
These moral laws in all of their manifestations are given to man for mans’ benefit, as a moral guide, “… indeed, the Master of the universe himself spoke about repentance with an oath: “For as I live says the Lord, I do not desire the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance.” (1st Clement 8:1-2)
Repentance makes perfect sense in its role to prepare mankind to live higher social laws which members of a social heaven must learn to live if they are to live in an eternal peace and joy one with another. If inhabitants of heaven have not learned to master moral rules and are allowed to practice evil then heaven cannot BE joyous and unified eternal existence. Repentance is a part of the process by which morally imperfect beings improve.
Thus Manasseh correctly describes God as : “…the God of those who repent.” (Prayer of Manasseh. The literal translation of this verse in charlesworth is : “…for you are the God of the repenters ..” In this early theology, It is those who repent who are to become his people and he is to be their God.
2nd Clement reminds us that God doesn’t merely want our repentance, but it is our obligation to him : “… While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance.” (2nd Clement 9:7-8)
And the early Christians were reminded that God requires repentance because it is one principle that is required to save us.
2 REPENTANCE, IS A PRINCIPLE INHERENT TO MORAL PROGRESSION
Repentance was central to Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind so as to allow them to become more rational, useful and as a preparation to live in a social heaven in unity and joy. Phillip uses domestication as an example of What God is doing for mans benefit and why he does it.
“There are domestic animals like the bull and the ass and others of this kind. Others are wild and live apart in the deserts. Man ploughs the field by means of the domestic animals, and from this he feeds both himself and the animals, whether tame or wild. Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.” (The gospel of Phillip) It is the intelligent, civil and morally “domesticated” mankind which are best able to live in heaven and be of benefit to others.
Repentance plays a central role in this moral intelligence and civilizing of the morally ignorant and morally uncivilized spirits of mankind. Though spirits are initially, morally ignorant, they are to repent and learn moral laws though they will make mistakes along the way.
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent…(Acts 17:30)
The ancient justification for God “winking” at, or allowing some moral error is because it was part of the moral education of individuals who would, ultimately , become both righteous, and morally educated. Diognetus explains this principle thusly :
“… he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness … (The Epistle to Diognetus 8:9-11)
This plan for man to “plant wisdom in their hearts” and learn to live by it qualifies them to be given greater power and glory in the eternal (‘undying’) worlds. Mankind who reject the opportunity to live by moral laws ultimately regret not having repented and learned to live higher moral laws. The prophet Baruch describes this early tradition :
“… as for the glory of those who proved to be righteous on account of my law, those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their hearts – their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty so that they may acquire and receive the undying world which is promised to them. Therefore, especially they who will then come will be sad, because they despised my Law and stopped their ears lest they hear wisdom and receive intelligence. (The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 51:2-6)
Jewish Zohar likens this moral education of the spirits of mankind to a “boarding school” that spirits are sent to in order to gain the needed education and then welcomed home, having been “initiated into the ways of the palace”.
: “….the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps. It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day.… ’ ([Prov. 10:25].” THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
3 REPENTANCE WAS NOT MERELY REGRET OR EMBARRASSMENT
The ancients understood that simply having a “worldly sorrow” for moral mistakes was different than a “godly sorrow” associated with authentic repentance.
“…Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Cor 7:9-10)
In ancient tradition, the repentant Christian was to : “Wash and be clean; remove the wickedness from your souls out of my sight. Put an end to your wickedness; learn to do good; seek out justice; deliver the one who is wronged; give judgment on behalf of the orphan, and grant justice to the widow.” I Clement 8:4;
Clement explains that they were to be restored “… to the honorable and pure conduct which characterizes our love for the brotherhood. 2 For this is an open gate of righteousness leading to life,… This is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter by it.” (Ps118) 4 Although many gates are opened, this righteous gate is the Christian gate; blessed are all those who have entered by it and direct their path in holiness and righteousness, doing everything without confusion. (I Clement 48:1-4)
Though they would make moral mistakes, still “The lord, however, forgives all who repent, if in repenting they return to the unity of God…” Ignatius to the Philadelphians 8:1.
This is different than the Christian that simply feels badly that he sins, but then intentionally and willingly repeated his same sins. “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” Hermas 31:1-67;
AUTHENTIC VS COUNTERFEIT REPENTANCE
In ancient Judao-christian Tradition, it was authentic repentance which opened the door to the full effect of Gods mercy for sins, the counterfeit “repentance” did not offer mercy in this same way . “… If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…. “ (1 John 1:6-7)
And, the Lord was not to be fooled by counterfeit displays of either repentance OR fake piety : “… ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” Matthew 23:25-28
“Jesus said, “I took my place in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found all of them intoxicated; I found none of them thirsty. And my soul became afflicted for the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent. “ (The Gospel of Thomas vs 28)
“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me….” (Matthew 15:7-9 Just as Hypocritical and counterfeit piety were done ineffectually and “in vain”, counterfeit repentance was just as ineffectual.
This early tradition was spelled out in hermas’ vision of the willow :
“To those,” he said, “whose hearts he saw were about to become pure, and who were about to serve him with all their heart, he gave repentance; but to those whose deceit and wickedness he saw, who were about to repent hypocritically, he did not give repentance…[forgiveness]” (Hermas 72:2)
God is trying to teach individuals to “Rend your hearts and not your garments” (Joel 2:13)
The bad effects of counterfeit and false repentance did not simply damage the unrepentant Christian, but his immoral behavior affected those who were looking critically at christianity for moral value and rejected it because of the actions of the unrepentant and hypocritical Christians.
“For the Lord says, “My name is continually blasphemed among all the nations…. Why is it blasphemed? Because you do not do what I desire. For when the pagans hear from our mouths the oracles of God, they marvel at their beauty and greatness. But when they discover that our actions are not worthy of the words we speak, they turn from wonder to blasphemy, saying that it is a myth and a delusion.” 2nd Clement 13:2-3
This same ill-effect is true as agnostics look closely at Christian arguments and meanness and pettiness in forum arguments nowadays.
REPENTANCE REPRESENTS A REAL AND ON-GOING EFFORT TO CHANGE, NOT A TEMPORARY ADJUSTMENT
Abrahamist gave us an example of a christian theory where one may claim eternal salvation by saying a single and simple prayer. Nowadays, just as anciently, there were Christians who claimed eternal salvation simply by a single and simple belief in Jesus, but do not attempt authentic repentance. Speaking of such theories of belief while continuing in idolic behaviors, Barnabas said :
“...Be on your guard now, and do not be like certain people; that is, do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely ...”(The Epistle of Barnabas 4:6)
“For there are some who maliciously and deceitfully are accustomed to carrying about the Name while doing other things unworthy of God. You must avoid them…” (Ignatius to the Ephesians 7:1)
To the Christian convert, the early tradition was that they have an opportunity for authentic repentance, “But if he sins repeatedly and repents, it is of no use for such a person, for he will scarcely live.” (Hermas 31:1-67)
“For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death? 123 Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it, 124 because we have lived in unseemly places? 125 Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars but our faces shall be blacker than darkness? 126 For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death.” 127 (The Lord) answered and said, “This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage, 128 that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said.” (Fourth Book of Ezra 7:120, 123 and 125-131)
The ancients understood that they would make, and even sometimes repeat moral mistakes. The point seemed to be the constant effort toward improvement : “The righteous stumbles and proves the Lord right; he falls and watches for what God will do about him…. sin after sin does not visit the house of the righteous. The righteous constantly searches his house, to remove his unintentional sins.” V2 p655 Psalms of Solomon #3:5-7;
4) REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS; MERCY AND JUSTICE ARE NECESSARILY RELATED – ALL ARE NECESSARY
“….For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,…“ Heb 10:26
In ancient tradition, the Lord God, was a Just Lord.
The difficulty with justice as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for moral ability. If one sinned, they were banished from the realm of the sinless. It was the principle of mercy in ancient tradition that tempered the effects of justice.
“As it was, when God dismissed them from Paradise, He did not allow the divine quality of justice to prevail entirely. He associated mercy with it.” P 37 The Haggadah (The Punishment);
However, the difficulty of mercy as a single principle is that it makes no moral allowance for justice for sin. Repentance was the mitigating factor. A degree of mercy was to be offered to the repentant as they learned moral laws. Without repentance, there was insufficient mercy for complete forgiveness.
The implication for ancient tradition was that, without repentance, mercy could not be justly applied. This is the context underlying the Prophet Ezras’ discussion with God regarding unrepentant Sodom and Gomorrah :
“But have mercy upon the sinners for we know that you are merciful.” And God said, “I have no way to be merciful to them.” And Ezra said, “(Be merciful) because they cannot sustain your anger. And God said, “(I am wrathful) because such (are the deserts) of such (men) as these.” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 1:15-18)
In this early theological model; Without repentance, applying a complete, pardoning mercy is unjust (and God MUST remain a God of Justice). Ezra concedes this point to God, saying : “Lord you bring upon us what we deserve. And God said, “Your sins exceed my kindness.” And the prophet said, …“ Pity, Lord, the sinners, pity your own molding, have mercy upon your works.” The God remembered his works and said to the Prophet, “How can I have mercy upon them?” (Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 2:20-21). It is Sodoms lack of repentance that prevents Ezra from finding any further justification for requesting and applying mercy.
This connection between repentance and mercy has existed throughout all ages of Judao-Christian tradition. “Indeed, all the saints who have sinned up to this day will be forgiven, IF they repent with all their heart …” Hermas 6:4 (bold is mine)
At some point, all of us must come to the same Understanding of the value of repentance that Gad (brother of Joseph) came to when he taught his sons :
I understood this at last, after I had repented concerning Joseph, for according to God’s truth, repentance destroys disobedience, puts darkness to flight, illumines the vision, furnishes knowledge for the soul, and guides the deliberative powers to salvation. 8 For what it has not learned from human agency, it understands through repentance.“ Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Gad 5:1-8
These early Judao-Christian traditions regarding the relationship between Good and Evil, Justice and Mercy and the Moral education of our spirits is summed up in Jewish 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 (from Qumran “Charter”). Regarding Good and Evil, they taught
“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these spirits. All the hosts of humanity, generation by generation, are heirs to these spiritual divisions, walking according to their ways; the outworking of every deed inheres in these divisions according to each persons’s spiritual heritage, whether great or small, for every age of eternity. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions.“
The ancient tradition were clear as to the purpose of both Good and Evil in Gods plan to morally educate, civilize and domesticate the spirits of mankind. Importantly, we were to be judged and rewards and punishments were associated by virtue of the moral laws we chose to learn to live.
“…Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a person’s endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages of eternity. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil, deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him, until the day of the appointed visitation.” (“CHARTER” 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26)
It was those who had learned to repent and learn to live higher and higher moral laws that were able to say : “I give thanks to You, O Lord, for You have redeemed my soul from the pit. From Sheol and Abbadon You have raised me up to an eternal height, so that I might walk about on a limitless plain, and know that there is hope for him whom you created from the dust for the eternal council. The perverse spirit You have cleansed from great transgression, that he might take his stand with the host of the holy ones, and enter together with the congregation of the sons of heaven. And for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge...” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - (1QH + 4Q432 Frag. 3 Col. 11:19-23)
I hope it makes sense Why I believe that the early Christian tradition would have believed that “without on-going, authentic repentance”, no single simple prayer will guarantee the reward of eternal life in a social heaven of powerful exalted beings who have repented for sin and have learned to live higher moral laws which enable them to live together in unity and joy for eternity.” This new theory of “Easy Believism” is not merely inconsistent with the earliest Judeo-Christians Texts describing Early Christianity, but it cannot save anyone.
The early Judeo-Christians described, in their texts, a religion that was different than the modern theory of Easy Believism. If they are correct in their descriptions, then, Mike555 (and the rest of us) cannot be save without repentance (which seems to be the essence of the social and moral improvement Wardendresden is describing).
Wardendresden said in post 667 “Since Clear Lens is a student of ancient manuscripts (as a hobby), I think he has a better picture on what the early church believed.”
Wardendresdon, Sometimes I wish this obsessive interest in early Judeo-Christian texts and their history was simply a “hobby”.
However, you are correct that Mike555’s modern interpretive Easy Believism theory is not part of authentic early Judeo-christian doctrine, but rather is a more modern re-interpretation of the sacred texts.
As you can see from his last post, he is left to simply repeat his interpretations of the texts. The obvious fact that repetition overlooks is that repetition of theory can never change the fact that the early Christians interpreted these text far differently than Mike555 interprets them (just as individuals on the forum interpret the same scriptures differently so as to be able to support a myriad of differing theories).
The simple take away principle is that if early Christians were correct in their descriptions of authentic Christianity and it’s promise, then Mike555 must repent and start to learn to be obedient to Jesus before he can be saved, just like all others (regardless of any promise his theory creates).
Mike555 cannot be saved into the kingdom of heaven without rendering obedience to Jesus.
Clear
νεφισετζω
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